Oral history interview with Carl and Deborah Rubenstein

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, May 11, 2012. I'm in Oklahoma City in the home of Deborah and Carl Rubenstein. Carl, you're an MD, a heart specialist. You play a mean Indian flute. (Laughter) And Deborah, you've had a full life as a homemaker; you guys travel a lot; you have a daughter in Italy; you've been a big part of this collecting process; and you've both been involved since the 1970s collecting Native art. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

C. Rubenstein: Glad to do it.

D. Rubenstein: Yes, we're happy to.

Little Thunder: Let's start with you, Carl. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

C. Rubenstein: I was born in Perth Amboy, New Jersey, and that's where I grew up.

Little Thunder: What did your mother and father do for a living?

C. Rubenstein: My father was a CPA. My mother worked for my dad as a secretary. 1:00That's a pretty good summation. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you have much artwork in your home, growing up?

C. Rubenstein: We did, not Native American art but a variety of forms of artwork, not in any major sense. I had an interesting cousin, my dad's cousin, who really was a collector of some very interesting art and knew a lot of artists in the New York area. We had a lot of exposure to art but not as collectors.

Little Thunder: No one in the family was especially artistic, but there was that interest?

C. Rubenstein: My mother was musically artistic and actually did some painting, but other than that, I'd say no, unless you count photography. I had an uncle 2:00who was a professional photographer and a very good one.

Little Thunder: You saw his work at an early age.

C. Rubenstein: Yes.

Little Thunder: Were you interested in drawing or painting, growing up?

C. Rubenstein: (Laughs) Since I have absolutely no talent along those lines, I guess the answer really is no. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You didn't have really any chance to be around Native culture too much, growing up?

C. Rubenstein: Yes and no, I mean, certainly not the way we have here, but a lot of Native American history in our area. The Lenni Lenape Indians were a strong part of the history of the Perth Amboy area, and there were murals in the high 3:00school, as I recall, portraying the life of the Lenni Lenape.

Little Thunder: So in your public school education you got some exposure.

C. Rubenstein: Yes.

Little Thunder: Great. Deb, how about you? Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

D. Rubenstein: I was born in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I grew up there. My family's in the furniture business. My mother's father started the business, and my father continued it. After my father died, my mother continued it. That's what they did.

Little Thunder: Did you have very much artwork in your home?

D. Rubenstein: Yes, we did. It was not Native American art, but a lot of 4:00American artists. Nobody [in the family] was artistic, per se, but [we] always appreciated art.

Little Thunder: Were these reproductions, or there were some originals?

D. Rubenstein: Yes, they were originals. My parents had a great appreciation for beauty, so they enjoyed the artwork. And we went to Cherokee [North Carolina] when we were young.

Little Thunder: As a family road trip?

D. Rubenstein: As a family, we went out West. We went to Santa Fe, and Mother and Daddy collected small pieces from Lucy Lewis. My sister and I kept saying, "Why didn't we get something large?" when they were out there. (Laughter) We did always have some Native American art, but not hanging. It was more pottery. I 5:00guess it was all pottery, baskets.

Little Thunder: They were collecting in the '40s, your parents were.

D. Rubenstein: Yes, and the '60s, probably '50s and '60s, yes.

Little Thunder: Did you have any extended family who were artistically inclined?

D. Rubenstein: No.

Little Thunder: How about your own interest in drawing or painting?

D. Rubenstein: Oh, I always wanted to. I always wanted to be a pianist, but I didn't have any ability. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Carl, back to you. In junior high, high school, did you take any art classes?

C. Rubenstein: The art classes in the schools were part of the curriculum. There 6:00were regular art classes, of which I was not one of the stellar performers, (Laughter) but not really history of art or exposure to fine art. It was mostly an attempt to get kids to be able to draw and create things, and that was pretty limited for me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How about when you got into college? I don't know if you had an interest in medicine yet, but did you have any art history background?

C. Rubenstein: My interest in medicine really began when I was in grade school. That continued on through, but that's not what I pursued in college. Yes, I took courses in art and art history while I was in college, with both European art 7:00and American art.

Little Thunder: When and how did you first meet Deborah?

C. Rubenstein: Well, we met at the beginning of my internship [at Duke Medical School] through one of Debby's cousins who had given her name to one of my roommates. He had never looked her up. When he left at the end of medical school to head back east, we traded some names, and I called Debby. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You guys were too busy to have a social life! (Laughter) Where were you interning?

C. Rubenstein: At Duke University in Durham.

Little Thunder: Deborah, do you remember your first date with Carl?

D. Rubenstein: I do. I do. His roommate was not going back east. He was going up north because we were east. (Laughter) North Carolina is east, versus Oklahoma.

C. Rubenstein: I've been here so long, I forget that. (Laughter)

D. Rubenstein: Yes, he came over to our house, and we went to the Velvet Cloak, which was a restaurant and dance club in Raleigh. We had a really good time.

Little Thunder: Do you remember if you went to any art exhibits? Was that part of your dating life? Did you take in art together?

C. Rubenstein: I'd have to say, during the dating phase, it really couldn't have been because time off for me meant one evening a week and one afternoon and evening on the weekend. That was it.

D. Rubenstein: He was on the rest of the time, constantly, and I was in college. We met in August, and I went back to school in September for my senior year. I 9:00was busy, and he was busy, so the answer is no. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You got married when you finished college. Was your first full-time job in Oklahoma? Is that where you went first?

C. Rubenstein: At that point, I did a research fellowship at Duke, and then went into the Navy for two years, and back to Duke for residency in internal medicine, then a fellowship in cardiology. And then we came out to Oklahoma. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What year are we talking about?

C. Rubenstein: We moved here in 1972. I was asked to come out and join the cardiology faculty and the Medical Research Foundation. We thought we would spend four or five years and head back east. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When did you attend your first Native art show here in Oklahoma?

C. Rubenstein: Let's see. I'm not sure when we attended our first Native art show. I remember our first purchase here in Oklahoma was probably the [Edward] Curtis photograph.

D. Rubenstein: That was from the Pickard Gallery, and we did that right after we got here. They were Curtis photogravure, and they had all kinds of the photographs exhibited that time at the gallery. We just were floored by them, so we bought--did we just buy the one, the photogravure?

C. Rubenstein: We bought that one, initially, yes. That was one of the onion skin prints from one of the original folios. It was one that we just fell in love with.

Little Thunder: Had you collected some Native art before? What was your first piece you collected together?

D. Rubenstein: When we went to Myrtle Beach, which we do every summer, they have an antique show that's really nice. They had some wonderful pots, (that was before we moved out here) and we bought several. They were wonderful pots. They were forty dollars. We wanted three of them, but we could only afford two. We've regretted that third one ever since! (Laughter) It was a wonderful black pot with a bear claw on it. We didn't get that one, and we really have thought about 12:00it forever. You never forget those that you missed. Every year, even after we moved here, we would go to that antique show. We bought stuff as long as they had it.

Little Thunder: Were these coming from the Carolinas, or were they coming from the Southwest?

D. Rubenstein: I think originally they were from the Southwest. I know they were, but they had ended up in homes in the East and then in the estates. It was very disappointing for us when they stopped having that sale because we bought wonderful things.

C. Rubenstein: By that time, we were out here and going back to the show and hoping that we would find something really fantastic that they didn't realize was really fantastic. That never happened. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You did attend some Native art shows that were at the 13:00predecessor of the Oklahoma Art Museum, at that point, the Oklahoma Art Center. Do you remember the first time you went to that show?

C. Rubenstein: I remember going to the gallery there. I don't remember the first show there.

D. Rubenstein: Well, it would've been at the gallery. Imogene Mugg had that gallery. Remember, one of the first pieces we bought was a Doc Tate Nevaquaya piece. We went there a lot.

Little Thunder: What drew you to that first piece?

D. Rubenstein: Oh, we just loved it. It was color and very simple. It was very simple.

Little Thunder: Do you remember the subject matter?

D. Rubenstein: I think it was a peyote [ceremony].

Little Thunder: Did Imogene spend time with you talking about the piece?

D. Rubenstein: I'm sure she did. That was a long time ago. It was the early '70s. We bought rugs from her, and I can't remember what other pieces, particularly.

C. Rubenstein: I don't know that we picked up any pottery from her or not. I don't think so. I think it was the painting and rug, a couple of rugs, and maybe some jewelry but not much.

Little Thunder: So far, you hadn't met any Native artists at shows, in person?

C. Rubenstein: No.

Little Thunder: Do you remember the first show you went to where artists were present?

C. Rubenstein: Probably at Doris' [Littrell] at the Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery.

Little Thunder: How did you discover that gallery?

D. Rubenstein: Through Mimi.

C. Rubenstein: Our friend, Mimi Smith, who knew Doris told us about it and maybe brought us there for that matter. That really started things. That made a big difference.

Little Thunder: When you knew that place was there, you would go when you felt like it?

C. Rubenstein: When we felt like it, but also whenever we got word from Doris that she was having a show. Doris made the difference. Right off the bat, I think we felt we were learning from her, and we enjoyed knowing her. That 16:00created part of the attraction. Every time we went, we learned more about the art and the artists. That is where we met the artists, and that was another part of the appeal of what she did.

Little Thunder: You met Doc Tate there, I'm guessing.

C. Rubenstein: Actually, I think we met him once before that at the state fair. He was playing the Native American flute, which intrigued me. I talked with him but actually bought my first flute from him at Doris' when we met him again, subsequently. I remember that. I remember the first time we saw him, heard him, and being so enamored of the Native American flute.

Little Thunder: Did you go to the fair for several years? Did you buy artwork at 17:00the fair, too?

C. Rubenstein: I don't think we bought artwork at the fair.

D. Rubenstein: But we did go. We went every year for a long, long, long time.

C. Rubenstein: I don't think of the state fair as being a focal point for artwork. That may be unfair, but--

Little Thunder: They did sell a bit there, and even Doris had, at one point, some paintings there. I think that was before you moved out here.

C. Rubenstein: Yes, and nothing like what Red Earth was, for example, or what we saw at a few of the powwows that we attended.

D. Rubenstein: We also used to go, before Doris', to Andy Anderson's. Do you remember that one? It was over near Classen.

C. Rubenstein: Classen Circle.

D. Rubenstein: I don't remember buying anything.

Little Thunder: It was a gallery?

D. Rubenstein: It was a gallery, yes, and I'm trying to remember. We must have bought something from him, but that was before we knew about Doris'.

C. Rubenstein: His was a more eclectic place that had all sorts of antiques and artwork, I think.

Little Thunder: At what point were you conscious of the fact that you were becoming collectors? (Laughs)

D. Rubenstein: I don't think you're conscious of it. You just go and see things that you love and can't stand not bringing it home with you. (Laughter) I think that's the essence of a collector: people that really fall in love and want something. Then it just continues. Then you end up being a collector. I don't 19:00think you start with that in mind, that you want to be a collector. We only have things that we fall in love with.

Little Thunder: Did you always fall in love with the same piece together? Did it ever happen that you liked a piece that Carl didn't like, and vice versa?

C. Rubenstein: I really don't think so.

D. Rubenstein: Rarely.

C. Rubenstein: We may have had different degrees of being enamored about a given piece, but I don't think we ever had a conflict over a given piece. We really share a lot of taste maybe because, partially, I respect Debby's taste so much. (Laughter) Maybe it shaped mine.

Little Thunder: Well, that's a blessing that you're both on the same wavelength. 20:00Is collecting primarily an emotional experience? Is it partly an intellectual experience?

C. Rubenstein: A little bit of both. I think maybe more emotional than intellectual. I don't think we really thought of ourselves as collectors. I'm not sure we really think of ourselves as collectors at this point, in the sense that we don't try to take a systematic approach to collecting a given type of work or a specific artist and saying, "We have to accumulate as much as we can of this." We really have, by and large, gone on the basis of things that sort of tug at our heartstrings. We've thought of ourselves as accumulators more than collectors. (Laughter)

D. Rubenstein: Exactly.

Little Thunder: Did you notice any pattern to things that would attract you? Was 21:00there a certain type of image, or did you just find yourself going back to certain artists over and over? Were there any themes?

C. Rubenstein: I think maybe the answer is in both areas. I think we've tended to really enjoy things that have interesting people, interesting faces, interesting stories, more so than things like landscapes, for example. Yes, we've had an attachment to the works of specific artists, partially because they had characteristics that we enjoyed and probably, partially, because we got to know some of them. That makes a difference. I think that does have an influence. 22:00If you enjoy the work of an individual and you get to know that individual, it becomes even more enjoyable.

Little Thunder: Going back to the first Indian flute you purchased from Doc, can you describe your experience a little bit, how you chose the flute?

C. Rubenstein: Actually, I think he had that flute with him at the gallery at Doris'. It was one that he had made. I don't remember the details of how it occurred, but I admired it and asked if he made any that he would sell. He said, "Well, I'll sell you this one." (Laughs) So that was the very first one that I bought, which I still obviously have.

Little Thunder: And you came home and practiced.

C. Rubenstein: Began practicing and playing, mostly by ear, trying to pick up some of the songs and the melodies that I heard him play, and others, but then 23:00also adapting it to music that I'm familiar with. Particularly, as I've collected more flutes over the years, which have different characteristics as instruments, being able to use them for different kinds of music has been really fun and interesting.

Little Thunder: How many have you collected?

C. Rubenstein: I think I probably have about twenty-five, twenty-six, something like that.

Little Thunder: And music, as well? Do you collect CDs of Native music?

C. Rubenstein: Yes, and have made use of [the flutes] in a variety of settings including in our worship services at our temple, which has really been very enjoyable and interesting. I think people have really responded to it because 24:00it's a very beautiful, haunting sound that can be compatible with Jewish liturgical music, just as it can be with folk songs or a variety of things, in addition to the traditional Native American music.

Little Thunder: There's such a strong spiritual content a lot of times in Native art. I know your Jewish faith is very important to you. I'm wondering if you could talk about that, if you felt there were certain correspondences or if you appreciated that aspect of it?C. Rubenstein: It's something I've thought about over time because it's interesting that, maybe disproportionately, we've known a number of people who also are Jewish who've had an interest in Native American 25:00art, and I've wondered why. There are some spiritual feelings that I think are a part of it, some of it, the respect for the spirituality of things in nature and the respect for human beings, which you see portrayed very effectively. I'm not sure I can put my finger on it beyond that.

I think it is part of the feeling, part of the attraction that makes us so drawn to a lot of Native American art. Not all Native American art, but I think many of the pieces have some sort of feeling, whether it's for the individual or for the setting or for the background story that become an important part of it.

Little Thunder: Did you want to add anything to that Deb?

D. Rubenstein: I think he covered that beautifully.

Little Thunder: You both joined the Oklahoma Indian Art Club. Can you tell us a little about the club, Deborah, approximately when you got involved and what its purpose was?

D. Rubenstein: I can't remember when we got involved, but it was probably ten years ago, so that would have been in the '90s. It's held at people's homes, and we have speakers. It's also held on Friday nights, therefore (we go to Temple) we don't go very often. When we do go, we enjoy it. It's always a learning experience. If we feel like we can get away from Temple and go, then we do try, 27:00but it's probably twice a year that we get to go. We enjoy it.

C. Rubenstein: I think we learn both from the speakers and from the other people that are part of the club because they have varied interests in different components of Native American art. Some of them are very knowledgeable. I think we really have enjoyed that.

D. Rubenstein: They bring articles to show-and-tell, and people can tell what they know about the things that other people bring. They have books they give away. Marshall Gettys always brings books, and they have a raffle. If you win, you get some educational information. It's a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: What have you taken for show-and-tell? Have you ever taken anything?

D. Rubenstein: We haven't gone enough to--I don't think we've taken anything, have we?

C. Rubenstein: We probably have, but I really don't remember. You're right, our attendance has been sparse enough that that's not a significant part of memories. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How did you find out about the collectors club?

D. Rubenstein: Was it from Mimi?

C. Rubenstein: No, I think it was from Peter Carl.

Little Thunder: That seems to be another aspect of collecting or when you're involved in this art world is the network of relationships, not just with the artists but then you start getting to meet other collectors. How has that changed the process for you or enriched the process for you?

C. Rubenstein: Peter Carl is probably a good example of someone we've gotten to know because of mutual interests. His interest in pottery, in particular, is so intense and so much in depth that we've learned a lot from Peter. We've 29:00purchased things from him, as well. He's helped us really enjoy learning more about the pottery artists and about the pottery, itself, some wonderful, wonderful pieces.

Little Thunder: How have your tastes in collecting changed over the years, do you think, from when you first began to collect Oklahoma Native art to today?

D. Rubenstein: I don't think, as far as paintings, our tastes have changed that much. We've been able to afford more as time went on, and we've gotten to know artists a whole lot better. That is a big influence. As far as pottery, tastes, 30:00I think, have to fit your pocketbook a lot of times, (Laughter) so when your children are older and you're not expending as much in that direction, you get to put a little bit more into the size of your pots.

C. Rubenstein: Our interest in pottery, pretty substantially has been older pieces of work, not as much contemporary or more modernistic forms of Native American pottery. I think we really have and continue to really appreciate older pieces of work, not just because they're older but, whether it's shape or color 31:00or simplicity or a feeling that they create, it's something that's a little bit different.

D. Rubenstein: We do have a lot of contemporary artists, not modern design per se.

C. Rubenstein: Contemporary potters.

D. Rubenstein: Living contemporary potters. Judy Tafoya, we met at Red Earth, probably through Peter. Who else have we met?

C. Rubenstein: When you've been out to the Heard Museum--

D. Rubenstein: I don't know that I've met so many besides Judy. We haven't had the privilege of meeting a lot of the potters. The few we have met have been at Red Earth.

C. Rubenstein: And the Cherokee potter.

D. Rubenstein: Oh, Jane Osti.

C. Rubenstein: Jane Osti.

Little Thunder: I was wondering about Oklahoma potters.

C. Rubenstein: We probably have met more and gotten to know more painters than we have potters, and yet a large part of what we've collected over time really has been pottery.

D. Rubenstein: Besides the pots we brought here that we had gotten at the antique show, Carl had a meeting in Scottsdale, and one of the first pieces we bought was a Helen Shupla melon pot, which we just adored. We didn't know anything about Helen Shupla. We just bought it. The funny part of that story was six months later, my sister went out to Scottsdale, and she bought a Helen 33:00Shupla pot, and we had not communicated. (Laughter)

Hers was bigger, but it was the same black melon pot, just a different size. We were just astounded when she told me. I said, "Hmm, we bought one, too. How interesting."

Little Thunder: That is funny. How does your artwork live in your home? Do you rotate things around? Let's talk about wall art and pots. Do you change things up periodically? Do you sort of find a place, and that's where they stay? How do you decide where you put things? (Laughter)

C. Rubenstein: If you left it to me, I would put it someplace and it would stay there. Periodically, I come home, and I say, "Debby, what did you move?" 34:00(Laughter) We like to have the things that we enjoy out where we can enjoy them. We try not to store them away or hide them away. We don't buy things with a specific place in mind to put them. We buy them because we enjoy them and then find a place where we can enjoy seeing them.

D. Rubenstein: That's primarily when we move things. When something new comes into the house, you've got to find the right place for it, so everything starts to be moved. That's more pottery. Most of the artwork, the paintings, have their spot, and they don't move. Then it's just a matter of finding a ledge somewhere that the next piece can live on. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Are you pretty much in charge of that, Deborah, finding the 35:00right spot?

D. Rubenstein: I do accept that as my [job], with Carl's help. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And he orients himself by where the artwork ends up. (Laughter) How many paintings do you think you own?

D. Rubenstein: I know we have maybe thirteen by Merlin Little Thunder, at least. (Laughter)

C. Rubenstein: It's probably fifteen, now.

D. Rubenstein: Okay, somewhere in that area. Robert Taylor, we have several, some big oils by him.

C. Rubenstein: Probably five of his.

Little Thunder: Bob Annesley seems to be another.

D. Rubenstein: He was one of the first we met at Doris'. Then we bought 36:00[Stephen] Mopope and Doc Tate Nevaquaya, so a lot of Oklahoma art.

C. Rubenstein: I think we have quite a few of Doc Tate's scattered around the house. Doc and Merlin and Robert Taylor are probably the ones of whom we have the largest groupings.

Little Thunder: Have you ever traded up, as they call it, where you took a piece that you decided you could live without because you wanted a more expensive piece?

D. Rubenstein: No, never. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Once you fall in love, that's it.

D. Rubenstein: Yes. With these, it hasn't changed. Our feelings about the paintings haven't changed if we bought it in the '70s or whatever, as long as they were original and by an artist. The only things we've changed, we did have 37:00some prints when we were younger, which we liked, but we have moved those in favor of originals.

Little Thunder: Have you gotten to take any to your office, Carl? Do you have art in your office?

C. Rubenstein: As a matter of fact, yes. (Laughter) Some of the paintings and some of the photographs, the Curtis photographs, which I have carefully labeled on the back, saying, "These belong to--" (Laughter) Rugs, as well. We've been able to enjoy having them in the office, also.

Little Thunder: That was sort of a trademark of Doris' gallery, that combination of pottery, rugs, paintings. Did you notice that right away?

C. Rubenstein: Yes. Two of the rugs that I had originally in my old office before I joined this larger group which we now have here, we bought through Doris.

D. Rubenstein: You have chairs in your office that we bought from Doris. I love the furniture and the combination of it. It makes it homey. I think it's a wonderful way to display everything.

Little Thunder: Have you collected any of the newer thirty-something artists, any younger artists?

D. Rubenstein: I don't think so, yet. Do you?

C. Rubenstein: No.

D. Rubenstein: I don't think so. There's some that we were interested in, but we haven't.

C. Rubenstein: I think that's right. As we've seen their work, we've looked at them and said, "Gee, that's really interesting." We enjoy them, but we haven't 39:00said we want to collect them or bring them into our home as much as the artists who we have now.

D. Rubenstein: We don't have room. We're out of room. (Laughter)

C. Rubenstein: I think we've really enjoyed some of the younger artists and some of the more contemporary Native American art. I guess we've got a few things that would fall in that category, like Ben Harjo's things, but that's not been our primary focus.

Little Thunder: What do your children think about your collecting? Are they interested in Native art, as well?

D. Rubenstein: They think it's wonderful, but are they as interested? Not now. 40:00Whether they ever will want it themselves--I mean, I'm sure there are pieces that each of them would want, but we find that our children are not collectors or accumulators. (Laughter) The next generation doesn't seem to be the same. Maybe it's lack of funds or they're so busy--

C. Rubenstein: It's not something they've developed yet, and I'm not sure they'd develop the same interest. At some point, if they said, "Gee, I'd love to have this particular piece in our home," we would be glad to let them have it. It will happen when we shuffle off this mortal coil. (Laughs) We've thought about it. I don't know which things they will want and which they won't.

I chuckled when you asked that initially because this last year when our 41:00daughter, Anna, was here, they walked in, our grandchildren, our youngest grandchild walked in and looked at her daddy and said, "They really are obsessed with Native American things, aren't they?" (Laughter) That was Leah.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's funny! Maybe the grandkids--

D. Rubenstein: I'm hoping.

Little Thunder: And sometimes collectors do think about museums as being a place where they'll send paintings, as you probably know. You made a trip to Arkansas to see Bill Wiggins [collection at the Sequoyah Institute]? Can you talk about that a little, how you first met Bill and what it was like to view that selection?

C. Rubenstein: Bill was another person we met at Doris' gallery, saw him a 42:00number of times there, and finally got to know him. The more we heard about his incredible collection, the more we thought, "Well, gee, we really need to see this." He's a delightful host. Last year, we went out there and spent a weekend seeing the collection that he's given to the university and visiting in his home, as well. Now, there is a collector! There isn't an inch of wall space that isn't covered with paintings, and I think he's got things stashed under the beds, in the closets-- (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Not everything's on display.

D. Rubenstein: No.

C. Rubenstein: He really has, in some respects, taken a more methodical approach to his areas of interest, which have been the central part of the country and Canada, Alaska. It's a huge. As you know, it's a huge collection, and he knows something about every single piece.

D. Rubenstein: They do a lot of research about it. I was just overwhelmed by his Northwest and Alaskan sculptures. My word, they are just fabulous! I really enjoy Northwest, too. Remember the first piece--we were at the antique show at Myrtle Beach. We saw a basket, and it was a very small basket with the whales 44:00along the bottom. We didn't know anything about it, and we wouldn't buy it until we went to the library and we researched it. Then we raced back and bought that little basket. (Laughter) That was our very first piece of Northwest. We started learning about it, and it's a fascinating area. The art is fantastic. We love that. We want to go up and travel sometime. We haven't done that.

C. Rubenstein: We've enjoyed picking up some basketry, as well. Marshall Gettys keeps telling us that the mistake we make in looking at pottery instead of baskets is, "You can drop a basket, and it doesn't break." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: There are some good basket makers here in Oklahoma. Given 45:00adequate space and resources, what parts of your collection would you want to deepen or broaden? It sounds like maybe Northwest coast art?

D. Rubenstein: We would like to keep adding the things that we love. I don't know that we'd say there was one area that we wanted to deepen. Do you?

C. Rubenstein: That in itself assumes, again, a more methodical approach to saying, "We want to expand a collection." I think we would continue to look for things from the artists who we have enjoyed. If we had significantly more space, we'd probably expand beyond that. I think the same thing is true of the pottery. I don't think our tastes would change if we had more space. We would just find 46:00more of the things that we already enjoy.

Little Thunder: What advice would you give another Native-art collector who is just starting to collect?

D. Rubenstein: Buy what you love, but read and try to educate yourself about the artists and the history.

C. Rubenstein: Yes, I think that's right. I would say don't approach it as an investment or creating a collection, but look at the things that stir something in the way of an emotional response and then try to learn about them. That's what makes it really fun for us.

Little Thunder: Did you ever get any advice from another collector or gallery owner about Native art that stands out?

D. Rubenstein: Peter has always given us lots of good information. Mimi Smith, she has beautiful things. We love going to see what she has, and she comes to look, and we share. (Laughs) She's very knowledgeable.

C. Rubenstein: In terms of a philosophy of approach, if that's so, it's something that has developed subliminally by spending a lot of time with people like Doris and Peter and Mimi and others from whom we've learned but not someone trying to give us a philosophy of how to approach the art or the artist.

Little Thunder: I guess you've mentioned the generational--artists are 48:00concerned, too, about this interest in Native art and how to sustain it. Why is it important to collect Native art?

D. Rubenstein: It helps the artist.

C. Rubenstein: I mean, that's a fairly generalized question. "Why is it important to collect any art?" or, "What defines Native American art?" which is very difficult, has gotten to be a more and more difficult question over time. Yes, it's important to support the artists, but in a sense, that's a spinoff from the fact that you really enjoy what they're producing. If you are 49:00collecting certain artists or certain categories, the fact that it encourages that artist then means that he or she may be able to display more for other people to recognize what they're doing, which kind of spreads the enjoyment and spreads their ability to survive as artists, which helps.

Little Thunder: Is there anything you'd like to add or anything we've left out before we take a look at a few of your favorite pieces?

D. Rubenstein: It's just been a pleasure through the years of being associated with Doris and the Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery and still visiting her and 50:00sharing in her open houses that she has. That has just been a wonderful thing for us, and she's a wonderful person.

Little Thunder: All right, we'll take a look at some of your pieces. We're looking at one of your pots. What would you like to tell us about this piece?

C. Rubenstein: This is a pot that was done by Judy Tafoya, who is not from Oklahoma but someone we've met in Oklahoma at Red Earth, year after year. This is not one of the first of the pots that we've bought from her, but may be the one that we think may be one of her best, one that we've really enjoyed. It's a good example of something you look at and say, "I love that because of the shape, because of the polish, because of the coloration."

D. Rubenstein: The size.

C. Rubenstein: Yes, but the shape makes the difference.

D. Rubenstein: Oh, yes. It's just a beautiful piece.

C. Rubenstein: It's probably one of her best in terms of the polishing, also, which is a real art in itself as we've come to appreciate. We've got a lot of pots that are small, but being able to create something that's large, we've come to understand, is a difficult thing in itself.

D. Rubenstein: This is a piece by Merlin Little Thunder. We looked at this for a long time at Doris' gallery. We finally were able to purchase it, and then no 52:00sooner had we done that, they decided to make a poster of it for the Jacobson House in Norman. I don't remember. What was the show they did the poster for?

Little Thunder: I don't remember, either. It was a Jacobson House show.

C. Rubenstein: It's a good example of something we were talking about before. If it were only the landscape, it probably would not have interested us anywhere near as much, but there are people, and there's a story, which is so typical of things that Merlin does. There's an interesting story involved. There's humor that comes through.

Little Thunder: A big part of the story is in the title, isn't it? What is it? The Day--

C. Rubenstein: Queen Anne Got Ditched at--

Little Thunder: --Hog Creek. (Laughs) The Day Queen Anne Got Ditched at Hog Creek.

C. Rubenstein: It's a wonderful piece.

Little Thunder: Would you like to tell us about this one?

D. Rubenstein: This is one of the very first paintings that we bought. We got this at the Oklahoma Art Center. It's a Doc Tate Nevaquaya. This is with the peyote ceremony.

Little Thunder: A really interesting early piece of Doc's, probably from the--

D. Rubenstein: We bought it in the early '70s, so I don't know exactly when it 54:00was done, but close to that.

C. Rubenstein: Yes, about that time. Probably the coloration, partially the fact that it also involves an interest in what was happening in the story behind it and learning something about Native American spirituality that probably intrigued us. I think the coloration is a strong part of what was attractive in that.

Little Thunder: Nice composition, too. This last painting, is it an oil?

C. Rubenstein: Yes.

Little Thunder: Can you tell us about this one?

C. Rubenstein: This is a painting by Gary Yazzie, a friend who lived here in 55:00Oklahoma for quite a few years and has very strong ties to Oklahoma but whose strongest ties, artistically, are to the land in which he grew up and the Navajo people. When he paints things that come from that background, we think he does probably his best work. He does focus a lot on people and on horses and a feeling, a very peaceful feeling, that I think is common to the things that he paints and even more so when he has spent more time at home in New Mexico. 56:00That's where his roots are, and I think that influences his paintings in the most useful way for him.

Little Thunder: Right. That's a really nice piece of Gary's. Well, thank you so much for taking time to speak with me today.

D. Rubenstein: Well, we've enjoyed it. We'd love to put all our pieces out here. (Laughter)

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