Oral history interview with Peggy Tiger

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Thursday, April 5, [2012] and I'm interviewing Peggy Tiger as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project for the Oklahoma Oral History Program at Oklahoma State University. Peggy, you're the matriarch of a very important art family for Oklahoma, beginning with your husband Jerome's famous contributions to Native art and now being carried on by your children and grandchildren. Thank you for agreeing to talk with me today.

Tiger: You're very welcome.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Tiger: I was born in Muskogee, Oklahoma, right here where we are now in Muskogee. I grew up in Muskogee and Eufaula.

Little Thunder: Did you have grandparents in both places?

Tiger: No, my family was in Eufaula, but my mother lived in Muskogee, worked at 1:00the hospital there in town. She was a nurse. That's why we lived there, but I did finish high school in Eufaula.

Little Thunder: That was my next question, what your mother did for a living. That was probably fairly unusual for her to be a nurse at that time.

Tiger: Well, my parents were divorced, and, therefore, she needed to earn her living.

Little Thunder: Did you have any brothers or sisters?

Tiger: I had a brother, but my brother died before I was born.

Little Thunder: You're Cherokee on your mom's side?

Tiger: Yes, on my mom's side.

Little Thunder: Did you have a good relationship with your grandparents?

Tiger: Oh, absolutely, a good relationship with my grandmother. My grandfather had died earlier. He was a judge in Eufaula, and he was a fine old Southern man that came from Alabama, married my grandmother. That's where the Cherokee blood 2:00comes from, was my grandmother.

Little Thunder: What kinds of things did they expose you to, your grandparents?

Tiger: Well, my grandmother was just an absolute delight. My favorite thing in the world was sitting and talking to my grandmother when I was a child.

Little Thunder: Did she tell you any stories?

Tiger: Oh, absolutely. Her mother was a fine medicine woman. She was one of the rare people in those day and times--we're talking about the early part of the nineteenth century. She didn't lose a child. They would send them when they were sick to the medicine woman in Porum, Oklahoma, and she would cure them every time.

Little Thunder: So all of her children had survived.

Tiger: Absolutely.

Little Thunder: Amazing. What was your first exposure to art that you remember, seeing a piece of art?

Tiger: Well, I didn't know anything. I was interested in horses and didn't know anything in the world about art until I met my husband-to-be, Jerome Tiger. He was just all art.

Little Thunder: Sometimes my friends who are Cherokee have said, "We want our kids to marry Cherokee." (Laughter) I don't know if that was your mom or grandma's attitude?

Tiger: They were very pleased I married a full-blood Indian boy. That worked very well, except the only fault he had was he was not Cherokee. He was Creek, but better than nothing. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So the first time you stopped and paid attention to art and started thinking about it was through Jerome?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you two go to art shows together before you got married?

Tiger: No, but if he could get a hold of something to draw with, he was constantly sketching without even knowing what he was doing. It just happened. That's how he was.

Little Thunder: It came automatically. Did he sketch you?

Tiger: Oh, yes. Anything that was around him, he sketched.

Little Thunder: During those times, did you just kind of sit with him and let him do his sketching? Did you read, hang out?

Tiger: I've always been an addicted reader my entire life. I was very fortunate. 5:00Some of the best books that I've ever read, I read when I was in, like, third grade because my mother was a very wise woman, and she would make sure that I had all these terrific books that are still my favorites.

Huckleberry Finn, that's the best book ever written by an American. I don't like Mark Twain because his attitude towards Indian people is hideous, but I still have to read his books because the man was the best writer that's ever come out of the United States of America, I'm convinced.

Little Thunder: In grade school, junior high, up until high school, did you, yourself, get exposed to any drawing or painting?

Tiger: No.

Little Thunder: Never interested?

Tiger: I never had any talent whatsoever. I mean, there is talent, and then there's me. (Laughter) That's both ends of the spectrum.

Little Thunder: Did you do pretty well in school, though, academically?

Tiger: Yes. Books are my thing, not art.

Little Thunder: When you and Jerome got married, you stayed at home as a homemaker, sort of, started out.

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: I know my husband was a pretty good businessman when it came to marketing his paintings before he met me, but once we met, he wanted me to take over that. (Laughter) How did it play out with you and Jerome?

Tiger: Actually, I wanted to work, but Jerome said he thought it would be a much better idea for me to go to school, so I did that. I was attending college--my youngest child was only two weeks old when Jerome died, so I wasn't in school 7:00right then, but most of our marriage I was going to school, not full time but going to school.

Little Thunder: Was that a hard balancing act?

Tiger: Not really. I always liked school.

Little Thunder: He would take care of the kids and do his artwork?

Tiger: Yes. He could do his artwork no matter what else he was doing. I've never seen anything like it. (Laughter) He'd be talking to someone, and he'd be sketching with one hand. When he'd sign the back of a check, (sometimes I'd sign them) the buyer would be very, very disappointed and totally horrified because if Jerome signed his name, he'd do an exquisite painting on the back of the check right under his signature. (Laughter) Those were checks that were put away.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) That's amazing.

Tiger: He was quite an amazing character.

Little Thunder: For me to be able to get up sometimes when my husband's been working and see something that he's finished, it's sort of like Christmas.

Tiger: I mean! It's just totally awesome, huh?

Little Thunder: Do you remember any particular moments when you just saw something he'd been working on?

Tiger: Well, he did formulate a whole new way of doing Native American art, and that was just awesome to see him doing things when there was not anything in that style in the world because he was inventing it. It was just really very exciting.

Little Thunder: In fact, some of the Native images that he was creating were the first with those themes that you had been exposed to.

Tiger: Yes. I never knew anyone so talented. He thought it was the most amazing and delightful thing in the world that he could make a living without working, he thought, but he painted all the time. To anyone, you would think it was--goodness, the man worked and worked and worked, but not to him.

Little Thunder: When you went to some of the first shows that he had, did he have shows with Nettie Wheeler?

Tiger: Oh, Nettie Wheeler just absolutely adored him. She worked with him constantly. There couldn't have been anyone better than Nettie Wheeler. Amazing woman. That was her life, Native American art. To find someone like Jerome, she was ecstatic.

Little Thunder: So, it was all his choices, what he put in [a show] and how he priced his work, working with Nettie?

Tiger: Oh, absolutely. That's how it had to be. He'd give things away. He wasn't interested in money. He wasn't interested in a lot of things that people would ordinarily be interested in. He had a good time. He liked to go out and run around with his brothers and so on, but he could paint for three days and three nights without sleep. He could just go into--well, you wouldn't call it a trance. Goodness knows he had to be very wide awake to do what he did. There was like two very opposite sides of him.

Little Thunder: Do you remember one of the first shows that you attended with 11:00Jerome when he was showing his work?

Tiger: That was at a department store here in Muskogee, Calvin's Department Store to be exact.

Little Thunder: What was that like for you?

Tiger: I was very proud of him.

Little Thunder: Were you a little nervous, too?

Tiger: No, I was too young to have enough sense to even be nervous. (Laughter) I was only eighteen when I married.

Little Thunder: But, also, as an artist's wife, you always have quite a bit riding on the success of a show.

Tiger: Yes, but it all just came so easy. I just thought that was a natural thing.

Little Thunder: So even though you didn't have a lot of extra money, the paintings were pretty much paying for the basics.

Tiger: Yes, we did pretty well, all things considered, because he was good 12:00enough that everything he painted, it immediately sold. We did pretty well because he was so fast. He didn't hurry. It wasn't hurrying to him, but it was just his natural way of painting. He could do one thing after another. Like I say, on the back of his checks, there'd be a signature and a intricate drawing.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Oh my goodness, yes, you'd want to frame it and not deposit it. Do you think that you and the children--two kids, right?

Tiger: I had three kids, and Chris died. He was murdered.

Little Thunder: You and the three children, after Jerome passed away, what were some of your sources of strength during that period?

Tiger: Well, to take care of my children and support them. Then, my cousin Molly 13:00Babcock--she's an attorney in California now, but I grew up with her. She also lived in Eufaula with her family. Molly and I formed the Jerome Tiger Art Company to sell prints of Jerome's work.

Little Thunder: What year was that?

Tiger: Probably about '69. Jerome died in '67. The first place we went was to Dallas, Texas. Molly would go in and say, "Now, this is the artist's widow," [me] standing there like a goon. She would say, "And these are his beautiful prints." Well, no one would buy a thing in the world.

One man, I never will forget, he said, "You two ladies are fighting a big battle 14:00with a sharp stick." We went back to our hotel room, and I said, "Molly, they're not going to believe that two women can do something like this, sell art. They're not going to buy one thing. We're going to have to change our whole philosophy. You're going to have to go in there as the saleswoman, and I'm going to have to stay at home and answer the phone and answer questions when people call."

The owner of the company was M. A. Babcock. We didn't say this is Molly Ann Babcock, believe me. We didn't have to lie to one person because, naturally, they assumed a man was running the company. After that, it was phenomenal. We sold all over. Absolutely amazing. That same varmint in Dallas, Texas, that had said, "You're fighting a big battle with a sharp stick," we refused to sell to, 15:00and he was furious!

Little Thunder: Good for you! (Laughs)

Tiger: We couldn't even say what we were really doing, though. They thought we were a very modern kind of company to have that main salesman out there, a woman, and to have a woman as knowledgeable as I was about Jerome Tiger (oddly enough, huh?) on the phone. This went on and on and on until we decided we could come out of the shadows. That's when Molly and I wrote that book, The Life and Art of Jerome Tiger, and it was the best seller OU Press Publishing Company ever had.

Little Thunder: Wow. To this date it set the sales record?

Tiger: I don't know what now.

Little Thunder: Or, at least, at that time?

Tiger: At that time, yes, absolutely.

Little Thunder: It's a wonderful book.

Tiger: It took a long time before we could dare come out of the shadows. That was just absolutely horrendous what women could not do in those days. You just 16:00could not.

Little Thunder: When Jerome passed away, Molly came out for the services.

Tiger: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: Had he left many unfinished paintings?

Tiger: No, Jerome was a "sell everything he painted immediately" upon sale. There was a long waiting list of people to see what he painted. He created a prolific number of paintings, much more than you would possibly in your wildest thoughts think that someone could do in that length of time. He was that fast.

Little Thunder: Maybe a piece a day?

Tiger: Yes, and sometimes totally intricate, creating a whole new style of 17:00Indian art. It wasn't too shabby.

Little Thunder: When you had begun to digest what the situation was, do you think Jerome was conscious at any point of, "This will provide for my family if I'm not around"? Do you think he ever thought about that?

Tiger: I wouldn't know. I don't know.

Little Thunder: When did you make that mental decision that people loved his art and they were going to be asking for his art?

Tiger: Well, people did not realize just how much of that art there was. That's why my cousin and I got together and decided we're going to have to do something about that because the man created much more art than anyone in their wildest 18:00thoughts would think possible.

Little Thunder: Yet, there were lots of people who still wanted and still loved his work?

Tiger: Oh, yes, once it was available, there was people all over the United States, once they were convinced that there were men running this company. (Laughter) They just had a very knowledgeable person that would answer the phone, and they had a very knowledgeable person that was coming to the galleries and bringing the art.

Little Thunder: You don't remember if it was Molly's idea or yours?

Tiger: It was my idea. Oh, you mean to start the company?

Little Thunder: To start the company.

Tiger: Well, it started because this guy (his name was Ted Pearsall) came to Muskogee, and he wanted to handle Jerome's art. Instead of doing that, Molly and I got together and we did it, but we almost blew the whole thing by saying who we really were.

Little Thunder: So he approached you first. Had he been a collector of Jerome's, 19:00or he just had seen his work--

Tiger: He'd seen his work.

Little Thunder: --and he knew there was something unique there. Who put the money into the company originally to help you get started printing?

Tiger: We didn't have any money, but there was a guy named Bob Lengacher in Tulsa, Oklahoma. There was Tulsa Litho over there, and they were one of the best printers in the United States. They were so in love with Jerome's art, as someone that was as intelligent as Bob Lengacher would be.

Little Thunder: Did he collect Jerome, too?

Tiger: Oh, yes, absolutely, so he didn't charge us one thing until we could pay. He just would do the prints, and he was the only one that could do those intricate colors that I was aware of at that time. I'm talking about nationwide.

Little Thunder: Would he have you come up and look at the proofs?

Tiger: Oh, absolutely.

Little Thunder: Did he print from his own paintings, to start with, or how did you gather the pieces?

Tiger: We gathered the pieces from different collectors because I would have knowledge of who the collectors were. They were perfectly willing to do that because they'd receive money for it, for one thing. Another thing, they were good people and willing to help.

Little Thunder: Oh, so you gave them a small percentage that you earned from the prints.

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: You created the list of people that had the pieces that you thought would be good for printing, and then took them to Tulsa Litho?

Tiger: Yes

Little Thunder: How many prints did they produce the first year?

Tiger: I think we just did like three, but we'd sell out. Then they'd go up in value, so it was an excellent investment for people.

Little Thunder: How did you decide how many to do at a time?

Tiger: Ordinarily, we'd do fifteen hundred, but then there'd be smaller editions.

Little Thunder: Was that a decision you made?

Tiger: Yes. It was amazing to people. They didn't realize how prolific he was. How could they?

Little Thunder: That really expanded the audience for Jerome's work.

Tiger: Oh, absolutely. The man was twenty-six and one month and thirteen days old when he died. My goodness, think of what he did! It was like a person who'd lived a long lifetime, and it was pretty quick at that. Anybody that can do an intricate little sketch on the back of a check--

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Where were some of the places that you or that Molly traveled?

Tiger: Molly traveled. After that fiasco in Dallas, Texas, I did not travel anymore. I said, "We're not going to do it this way. It's not going to work at all." They thought we were so modern and feminist because I was the one answering the phone. Here's one woman that knew something, and there was Molly out there. Our main salesperson was a woman. They always thought M. A. Babcock was a man.

Little Thunder: As long as it was owned by a man--

Tiger: They assumed. We never lied once. They absolutely knew M. A. Babcock was a man.

Little Thunder: Did they ever ask to speak to M. A. Babcock?

Tiger: No, because I was good on that phone.

Little Thunder: They didn't need any more information. You were able to fill the orders.

Tiger: Yes, I was able to fill the orders, tell them about the artist, tell them 23:00about the art.

Little Thunder: How long did it take to pay back the original printing investment?

Tiger: About a year. Those prints sold tremendously well as soon as they had it in their heads there weren't a couple women running the show. It was that bad in those days. Amazing! It's not like that, thank God, now.

Little Thunder: What were some of the places Molly went that were particularly good sales?

Tiger: All over. Molly was quite a talker. Like I said, she's a lawyer, and she could outtalk a Philadelphia lawyer. (Laughter) No one could have been better than her. I could not, being myself, do it.

Little Thunder: She continued to work as a lawyer?

Tiger: No, she wasn't a lawyer yet.

Little Thunder: So that was her living, too. It was both your livings.

Tiger: Yes, both our livings. Her mother was here helping with my children. That woman was awesome.

Little Thunder: Okay, because when you're running a business out of your house, it's hard to take care of the kids, so Molly's mom would help you.

Tiger: Absolutely.

Little Thunder: Was your mom still around?

Tiger: My mother died two years after Jerome. She just couldn't believe how he could make money. She just thought that was the most amazing thing that ever occurred.

Little Thunder: With artwork?

Tiger: Yes, with art.

Little Thunder: She didn't have any misgivings about you marrying an artist?

Tiger: She was horrified at first, and then she was just like, "Praise God!" 25:00(Laughter) I think that's what killed her, when Jerome died. She adored him. She really did.

Little Thunder: So you're running the printing company, you're selling prints, you're continuing to print each year. When did you get this place? Is this a family place, or did you buy it?

Tiger: I built this house, not personally, but had it built.

Little Thunder: You had it built with money from the art business. It's a beautiful place.

Tiger: Well, thank you. Been here almost fifty years.

Little Thunder: When did you decide to open the gallery?

Tiger: Actually, we opened that gallery because then we went into the making t-shirt business. I never used one of Jerome's paintings on a t-shirt, and I 26:00never will. We used Johnny Tiger, his brother's, the guy that's on that end of the house. That went over big. We were one of J. C. Penney's top-ten suppliers. We were that good.

Little Thunder: Wow. You were selling to department stores--

Tiger: Oh, yes, we were selling nationwide.

Little Thunder: --and different Indian stores and gift shops.

Tiger: Yes, all kinds of places. I found out I was kind of good at business because I had excellent products, no thanks to me.

Little Thunder: You believed in them because they were good.

Tiger: Oh, absolutely. They were good. That's one thing about me, I do know good from not so good. (Laughter) I was lucky in some ways and horribly unlucky in others. Some guy that's only twenty-six years old and dies, and my son was only 27:00twenty-two. It's just ridiculous. Murdered. And Dana has Parkinson's, and Lisa has Parkinson's, and Lisa has AIDS. Isn't that just all so nice?

Little Thunder: Dana has often spoken about you as being the main reason that she found her painting voice.

Tiger: Bless her heart. Dana is a pet. She really is.

Little Thunder: I wanted to talk about the fact that here you have this thriving print business, and your brother-in-law is an artist, but you're also seeing 28:00that your children have these amazing artistic gifts.

Tiger: Oh yes.

Little Thunder: Can you talk about when you first started realizing that Dana and Chris and Lisa, I guess, also drew and painted?

Tiger: Lisa was a very talented artist, but she just didn't want to do it. She was too in awe of her father's art, so she backed away from it. They were always quite talented, and my grandchildren are so talented. It's a miracle because they sure didn't get one speck of talent from me. (Laughter) There's no one less talented than me.

Little Thunder: Well, other kinds of talent.

Tiger: Well, I know how to read.

Little Thunder: Was that part of the reason for starting the gallery? You could have just stayed in the print business.

Tiger: Yes. Well, too, I adopted three children, so I had awesome 29:00responsibilities, always. I needed to make money, and I would do it with things I was particularly interested in. I didn't want to do something that didn't mean anything to me. I never have.

Little Thunder: When did you adopt the three children?

Tiger: Oh, years ago when my children were young. One was a little blind child, and one was a full-blood Indian boy. Another was the little blind child's brother, actual brother. I don't think I have the right, though, since they're not here, to say anything, to really talk about them. There's been as many as 30:00fifteen people living in this house. I just take in kids, not adopting, but--

Little Thunder: Also foster-parenting a little bit?

Tiger: Just somehow they'd come, and their parents would give them permission, and here they were. I mean, that Eddie Chuculate, he's an absolutely terrific writer. Won all kinds of awards, been to Harvard. He's no dummy. That guy, he's the only one out of all the people--my favorite thing was to recommend books to people. He's the only one that listened to one word I said. He'd actually read what I'd tell him to read. (Laughter) Out of all those kids, the only one was Eddie. Now, isn't that something?

Little Thunder: He spent a couple years here?

Tiger: Yes, years and years here. He liked it here.

Little Thunder: His family was close by?

Tiger: Yes, but they'd somehow let people come here.

Little Thunder: It was a good gathering place.

Tiger: Kind of a three-ring circus, I guess. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Dana and Lisa and Chris' friends?

Tiger: Oh, yes. Lord help us, yes.

Little Thunder: But these kids who came weren't necessarily their friends. They were often just--

Tiger: It was their friends, but then they'd come to live, just move on in. I must've been completely insane. Now it's only two people living in this house: myself and my brother-in-law, Johnny. He lives way down here, and I live way down there, or just the opposite. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You and Jerome got married first, but I understand you had a close friend who married Johnny?

Tiger: Absolutely. Carolyn, that one I was talking about. Her ancestors went to my ancestors' wedding in 1900.

Little Thunder: That's how far back your friendship goes.

Tiger: Go back to the 1800s.

Little Thunder: When did Carolyn meet Johnny?

Tiger: She met Johnny because I was with Jerome. Naturally, she'd meet him. He'd be around, too. Then eventually, they married.

Little Thunder: When you started the gallery here in Muskogee, what was your thought--Tiger: It wasn't a gallery then. It was a t-shirt manufacturing company. Like I say, it won national honors. They were all hand-screened, not sitting there, drawing them onto t-shirts. They were made with a machine but not 33:00an automatic machine. Someone would have to be right there and do each one. We had a lot of employees. It was a big old, hardworking--

Little Thunder: How many employees did you have?

Tiger: Sometimes fifteen. To me, that's a lot.

Little Thunder: Did any of the kids work or Johnny work at the t-shirts?

Tiger: Johnny did every one of the designs. I made up my mind, I was never going to take one of Jerome's paintings and put it on a t-shirt. He would have to have been here to say, "Do that." I wouldn't have done it on my own by any means, so he did all the shirts. I could show you some. He did some beautiful shirts.

Little Thunder: Yes, I've seen some. They are nice.

Tiger: I'll even give you a shirt, if you like.

Little Thunder: Oh, thank you. When did you decide to go into the art business? 34:00I think you started out showing some of Dana's and Chris' work, right, and perhaps Lisa's?

Tiger: Yes, it was just naturally what happened because once Tony and I were living in the same house, he'd work with them. When there was an art show, he'd get--you can't imagine how many friends my children had. (Laughter) Before an art show it would just be ludicrous. There'd be people lined up, everyone painting, all these kids. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: All their friends?

Tiger: Yes, absolutely.

Little Thunder: And Johnny said that he would take both, the kids and their entries, to make sure they entered shows.

Tiger: Yes. He'd mat them all for them and take them on out to wherever or mail them out to where they needed to go. It was a very artistic house and one 35:00un-artistic person: me.

Little Thunder: But behind the scenes, you're creating the environment in which this can happen.

Tiger: Yes, I totally was that for what they were doing or attempting to do.

Little Thunder: Did you work at the gallery once it was open?

Tiger: Around the clock.

Little Thunder: Okay, so you did run the gallery.

Tiger: Oh, absolutely. That was quite something.

Little Thunder: It was different for you because you were used to working here at home.

Tiger: It was different, but it was--we had huge orders, like from one company, hundreds of shirts ordered, so we really worked hard. I worked very long hours 36:00there, but it was okay because my children were there, too. They worked there, also.

Little Thunder: Did you pay them?

Tiger: Oh, yes. Are you kidding? You know what kids are like.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Yes. So you'd pay them per hour or per day? That was their extra money?

Tiger: Per hour. It was pretty good salary, actually, I thought. They were good workers.

Little Thunder: How about Dana's originals and Chris' originals? They were starting to put paintings in the gallery, too, weren't they?

Tiger: Oh, absolutely.

Little Thunder: Did you have some shows?

Tiger: Yes. Sometimes we had shows that were so big that you couldn't get all the people in at the same time. They'd have to wait to come in. You've seen that 37:00gallery. It's pretty big.

Little Thunder: Yes. Do you remember the first show, when you were showing Dana and Chris' work?

Tiger: No, not any one show in particular. I just remember that it was quite successful. I've been very fortunate in some ways and as unfortunate as anyone I've ever seen or heard tell of around here in others, not like those poor victims of the Holocaust, goodness knows, but pretty bad. I thought surely it would kill me when Chris was murdered. That's the worst.

Little Thunder: I can't imagine.

Tiger: He was such a beautiful person. When he was in high school, he was really quite a star on the football team. Every year, freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, they would vote for whatever girl he was going to take to the prom. I remember one year, I think his junior year, it was awful! All these girls were coming here, sneaking in the house. The door was always unlocked because there was too many people lived here. It was just nuts! All these girls sneaking up there. It wasn't ever that he was taking his own girlfriend, just whoever he picked. They were just up and down the stairs all night! (Laughter) Chris was a 39:00beautiful young man and delightful. Every year, we'd start going through this big thing right before selecting the homecoming queen. Chris was one of the prettiest boys I've ever seen. He was just absolutely beautiful and so kind, so good.

Little Thunder: I know he liked boxing. He had many interests Jerome had.

Tiger: Oh, yes. He was a Golden Glove champion like his uncle and like his father. As far as Johnny was concerned, they wanted to turn him pro, and he said, "No way!" He never lost but one fight, ever, Johnny ever did. He was amazing as far as his physical capabilities when he was young. Jerome wasn't too shabby either. Like I say, Johnny, when they wanted to get him to turn pro, he 40:00said, "No way!"

Little Thunder: Well, you kind of have to make a choice between your art--

Tiger: He didn't want to get his pretty face beat up like he would in that level. Around here in Oklahoma in Golden Gloves, he wouldn't.

Little Thunder: Can you talk about the book process a little bit and when you decided, again, who suggested it or if you both decided, you and Molly, at the same time? How did you know?

Tiger: We just knew then that we could come out of the woodwork and say who we were and write a book because it was a done deal. It was very popular art, and it didn't matter that there were two women. We wanted to get that in, for goodness sake.

Little Thunder: And it was 1985 or something? Maybe 1990.

Tiger: I can't even remember. It was good to be able to do that.

Little Thunder: Say who you were. (Laughs)

Tiger: Say who we were, say that "two women were actually doing this, ha, ha, ha!" Because then, no one objected. Isn't that awful, to have a world like that? That's exactly how it was, though.

Little Thunder: But with the book, too, it must be hard to--

Tiger: That book was harder to write than--I swear, I don't know if I'd ever started that project if I'd known how much--

Little Thunder: How did you do it?

Tiger: Just had to keep after it. After we'd gone so far, I had to keep going. I owed it to Jerome, certainly. He was so talented, and then people could see a broad spectrum of his work.

Little Thunder: Did you try to work, write every day a little bit, some of your memories?

Tiger: Oh, not a little bit. We wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote.

Little Thunder: Did Molly come out here and stay?

Tiger: Yes. Like I say, her mother was just a super woman. You can ask Johnny Tiger. That's his favorite person on earth is Aunt Lorraine. She was his teacher when he was in the sixth grade. That is the hardest working woman that ever lived on this earth, as far as any I've seen. She was just ridiculous in her ability to constantly work. Just loved it!. . . . she'd get you started, and she'd work, and she'd make everyone else work.

Little Thunder: How long did Molly come out and stay to work on the book with you?

Tiger: Years. She wasn't here all the time.

Little Thunder: She wasn't here all the time. She'd come for a week or two.

Tiger: No, she'd come every day. She had a home in Muskogee.

Little Thunder: She'd come every day for a period of three or four months?

Tiger: Three or four years. No, more like about two years. It was a lot harder than we thought it was going to be.

Little Thunder: Would you just do free writing? How did you--

Tiger: We had a guy here that worked for us that was one of the smartest people that ever came down the pike. I remember one time I was talking to someone on the phone, and there was a kid standing next to me batting on a basketball. It would go, "boing, boing." I was saying, "Well, we're doing really good because 44:00Danny is here and he works so fast." They thought that he was going on the typewriter, but it was this basketball, "boing, boing." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So you were generating the material. You were free writing, and then this person that you hired was typing up?

Tiger: Yes, he was an old friend from high school.

Little Thunder: Molly was acting as editor, or was she writing, too?

Tiger: No, actually, I ended up writing all of that book except that chapter on John being born.

Little Thunder: It's a beautifully-written book, so you did a wonderful job.

Tiger: Thank you. It sure wasn't something that was done professionally, or I would've certainly finished it a lot sooner than that, I'd think. I mean, two years, that's long.

Little Thunder: That's not long for a book, actually.

Tiger: I guess that's true.

Little Thunder: Was it hard, though, to remember some things?

Tiger: No. It was hard as far as heartbreaking but not hard to remember. It would be now. That was awhile back.

Little Thunder: OU Press published the book, and they took care of distributing it and everything--

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: --but you sold it out of the gallery, probably, as well.

Tiger: Oh, yes. We sold it to our clients. We had a limited edition, leather bound edition, too. It was five hundred dollars a book. I always needed as much money as I could get because, like I said, there was all kinds of children that lived here. Lord knows they didn't pay rent. (Laughter) They were all good kids, though.

Little Thunder: The limited edition books, the leather bound ones, you only published a certain amount of them?

Tiger: Five hundred.

Little Thunder: How quickly did they sell?

Tiger: Pretty fast. They're gone.

Little Thunder: But you continued to sell the book through the gallery?

Tiger: Well, there's not any more books, really. We sold out. Unless OU Press goes ahead and does another edition, that's it.

Little Thunder: Well, they should, probably.

Tiger: That's the first big book like that they ever did, big art book like that. Now they have expanded, and they're liable to do anything, but they didn't then.

Little Thunder: That's a good point that they were really sort of taking a chance on that book.

Tiger: Yes, they were.

Little Thunder: Did you meet with the publishers, you and Molly, a couple of times?

Tiger: Oh, Lord, yes. Oh, yes. More than a couple of times. There were times when we were trying to make deadlines that we were camped up there at OU Press Publishing Company.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow, you had to stay in Norman for a couple of days?

Tiger: I had those kids, and I'd have to get back. I remember sometimes I thought, "I'm going to kill somebody on this road, or myself, also," to drive back, you know. It was pretty tough, but Aunt Lorraine was always there.

Little Thunder: Were they immediately receptive when you proposed the idea for the book?

Tiger: Yes, they were quite receptive because we were doing quite well by then. We could show them how many prints we'd sold, so they would assume that they could sell books.

Little Thunder: And Jerome's reputation had just continued to rise. You started taking classes, when you and Jerome first got married, at Bacone, and you eventually changed schools and began taking classes at Northeastern. Is that right?

Tiger: That was after Jerome's death that I went to Northeastern. I went to Bacone some more. I took as many hours as I could take at Bacone, but I didn't graduate from there. I just took as many hours as I was allowed there. Then I went to Northeastern and graduated and received my BA at Northeastern State University. Well, it was Northeastern State College in those days.

Little Thunder: In what field?

Tiger: American studies.

Little Thunder: Was this also while you were working the prints?

Tiger: No, it was a little after.

Little Thunder: Then you went to work for Cherokee Nation?

Tiger: I went to work at the Cherokee Nation in 2004, and it was a job from heaven.

Little Thunder: What was your job?

Tiger: Well, I had to read, then write about what I read. It was just too much to bear almost. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Was it connected with Cherokee history?

Tiger: Oh, absolutely. I had to go and dig in the archives. You can imagine how that distressed me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And then they were going to use the research for--

Tiger: For various things, and I'd get to write about them. I'd get to do our monthly report for different divisions, what they'd done for the month. I love to write. That wasn't difficult writing. It was interesting writing. Everything I did there--if I had to, as a wealthy woman, which I've never been, I would have paid them to let me do that kind of work. It was that delightful to me. It just broke my heart after that car wreck. I was in the hospital for six months 50:00and almost died, but it was awful to lose that job.

Little Thunder: And then to have to come back, working your way back physically to being more active again.

Tiger: I'm never going to be very active. I was in perfect physical condition because I used to jog every day, twelve miles. You talk about in good shape, I was.

Little Thunder: You used to jog out here in the country?

Tiger: Yes, over there, there's a circle where I'd jog and then sometimes the park in town. I was in perfect shape. You can imagine. I can't even walk without 51:00a walker now, and I used to go twelve miles a day. I'm not lying!

Little Thunder: When you and Jerome were together, that was something you shared, too, I guess, was love of athletics. Did you love athletics in high school?

Tiger: Oh, yes, absolutely. I was never good at athletics like to hit something with a paddle, like play tennis. Not good at that, but I was always very fast. I learned by talking to doctors. Somehow I learned that I was amazing in that I never got hurt and I could go that far, as far as running and jogging.

Little Thunder: When did you take that up seriously, the long jogging?

Tiger: It wasn't anything really serious. Well, actually, I did win medals and stuff.

Little Thunder: Tell me about that.

Tiger: By the time I was entering things, naturally I was going to win because of my age. I was up there high enough to where there weren't many people in my division, so I did well.

Little Thunder: Were you in the Tulsa Run, ever?

Tiger: Yes, any place where there was running.

Little Thunder: You started in your late thirties?

Tiger: Oh, later, but when I was a child, I ran constantly. I was a tomboy, and I ran with a group of boys, and we ran from morning until night. That's when kids used to be turned out for the day. I don't care how strict or care where their parents was, that's what happened in those days. That's a long time ago. I think I built up something I could call on later, in those days, because I ran with this little gang of boys and we ran all day.

Then, when we were having a great crisis in the Cherokee Nation, I ran with the 53:00chief of the Marshall Service over there. You cannot imagine what a horrible fiasco that was. I was gone off those steps, and if someone hadn't caught me, at the Cherokee Nation-- It was just an absolute horror show for quite some time, but then our people got in. Then I ended up going to work there, and, like I say, it was a job straight from heaven. Imagine, giving me pay to read.

Little Thunder: And you still read a lot.

Tiger: All the time, if I'm not sitting here talking. The next book I'll read will be this little darling.

Little Thunder: Yes, you mentioned that. This is called Elizabeth's Women, and you admire Queen Elizabeth.

Tiger: More than anyone in all of history.

Little Thunder: Why?

Tiger: Because in a time when it was totally a man's world, she kicked ass! (Laughter) The woman, although she adored men, she could not have sex with anyone her whole entire life. In my own mind--this is one of those questions from history that people argue continuously: Did Elizabeth die a virgin? I think she did. How could she do otherwise?

Little Thunder: It was too dangerous if she wanted to keep her--

Tiger: Yes, and the woman could speak everything from Russian on around the corner. All those years, she was so intelligent that she kept people from 55:00attacking England because they thought they'd get it an easier way. They'd marry Elizabeth. Everyone came courting, except guess what? Surprise. (Laughter) I mean, that's awesome, isn't it?

Little Thunder: It is awesome. You've kind of talked about some of the low points, but I'm wondering, what have been some of the high points of your life so far?

Tiger: Well, it was a delight to be married to Jerome Tiger. He was fun, and my whole life had gone so right. It was like this horror that she'd married this Jerome Tiger. "How is he ever even going to support her?" That's when women usually didn't work. Wow! It was awesome! Made darn good money, just absolutely totally talented. My life was an absolute delight.

Little Thunder: And willing to do part of the work and watch the kids, and he 56:00wanted you to be able to develop your talents.

Tiger: Oh, yes, absolutely, insisted I go to school. That was very nice because I liked school. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I can't really think of anybody whose life has revolved, has been--as you say, you, yourself, don't do art, but your life has revolved around art and artists. What is it about art, do you think, that we just really need?

Tiger: It's just because I got to know Jerome Tiger, and he was just like artist personified. I do have enough sense to totally appreciate greatness and feel 57:00it's comprehensible to me. His favorite artist was Michelangelo, and he's always been mine, too. The funniest thing is, when they redid that Sistine Chapel ceiling, they finally found something that could be used to see what's really up there because they certainly couldn't wash anything off it. That same color was one that Jerome invented over here in the United States that Michelangelo used! God as my witness, you look at both.

Little Thunder: What color was it?

Tiger: It's a lime green. Now, how about that, huh?

Little Thunder: Wow, that is something.

Tiger: That came about when they finally found something that could clean it without hurting it at all, after Jerome was dead. But lime green. That's the kind of green you never--

Little Thunder: You must've both discovered Michelangelo together, then, from when Jerome got interested.

Tiger: Somehow Jerome managed to discover Michelangelo. He never knew that he used that lime green. It certainly took him away. He was absolutely his favorite. Mine, too. My own, too. I just get cold chills thinking about what he did, like that David and that Pietà. Good Lord.

Little Thunder: Jerome's sculptures, you got to see, as well.

Tiger: Oh, yes. He was a heck of a sculptor. The worst thing he did, though, was 59:00he did three, and then he decided it would be fun to use them for target practice because he had to work with something to make sure he could hold the clay together. He knew how to do it somehow. He did not want to do this whole big sculpture and have it crumble because he was making some kind of little mistake. Anyhow, the oddest thing, though, is that lime green that he and Michelangelo used, and Jerome didn't know that he used that.

Little Thunder: That's pretty amazing. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share, or anything we haven't talked about?

Tiger: No, I think you're very interesting to talk to. Of course, I'm doing all the talking, but I'm sure if you were doing the talking, you'd be quite interesting, yourself.

Little Thunder: Well, I've really enjoyed it. Thank you, Peggy.

Tiger: Yes, you're very welcome.

------- End of interview -------