Oral history interview with Harvey Pratt

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Sunday, March 18, 2012. I'm interviewing Harvey Pratt for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Harvey's home in the country within Oklahoma City. Harvey, you're a Cheyenne Arapaho tribal member, one of the leading forensic artists in the country. You're also an artist best known for your paintings, although you also do sculpture. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Pratt: Thank you, Julie.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Pratt: I was born in El Reno, Oklahoma, in 1941. I was born in a residence. I'm the sixth of seven children. I attended school in El Reno until I went to St. Patrick's Indian Mission in Anadarko, and I finished high school there.

Little Thunder: Your brother, Charlie Pratt, is a well-known sculptor. Where do you guys come in the sequence?

Pratt: Well, growing up in El Reno, obviously, Charles was a very talented man, and I always followed him. School teachers would say, "Oh, you're Charlie's little brother. Are you as good as he is?" (Laughter) So that kind of made me want to be as good as Charlie and try to follow his footsteps.

Little Thunder: He was the older brother.

Pratt: Yes, he was the oldest. They always, "Can you draw? Can you do these things?" I thought, "Well, yes, I can." Really, I always remember my first grade teacher, Mrs. Jones. I can remember her encouraging me because she saw that I had some kind of talent, some kind of raw talent. She encouraged me. Then I remember a Mrs. Hurdy in elementary school. She also encouraged me, and then a 2:00Mrs. Wyatt all through sixth grade, so I had those women kind of prompt me and stay after me and encourage me. Even though I didn't realize it, they had a big impact on my life.

Little Thunder: They saw that you got access to drawing materials and things. Did you have things at home, as well?

Pratt: No, I did not. If I did anything, it was by accident if I did some drawings. I remember doing drawings, but I didn't pursue anything like that at home. We were too busy playing in the river and hunting and doing stuff, so I didn't pursue a lot of things like that growing up. Even though as I got into junior high in El Reno, I still had that same stigma of, "Oh, you're Charlie Pratt's little brother. Can you draw?" I always had that.

When we went to St. Patrick's, I really didn't pay a lot of attention to it. I 3:00doodled and did things like that. A priest there by the name of Father Edward Bach saw some of my drawings that I was doing, just unschooled, no classes. We had no art classes. I was just doing stuff. He said, "Well, can you do this?" and he gave me a few little projects to do. Then he bought me some paintbrushes and some paints and some pencils. He did some things for me that made me kind of pursue those avenues.

Then he brought Susie Peters out. He brought Susie Peters out to St. Patrick's and had her look at some of my doodlings and some of my drawings and things like that. I had painted the Crucifixion, and I made everybody Indians. I made them all Indians. She said, "Obviously, he has some talent." I didn't have any idea who Susie Peters was. I had not the slightest idea. (Laughter) St. Patrick's, 4:00they had all of those Kiowa Five guys in their school. All of those paintings were up in the attic. Bach was interested in that, so we gathered up stuff. We found Carl Sweezys. We found a lot of Carl Sweezys. We found [Stephen] Mopopes, just a lot of paintings.

That kind of influenced me, looking at that style of art. That flat style influenced me a great deal. I sold my first painting while I was still in high school of that Crucifixion. A lady in Midwest City came out there and bought my first painting. I thought, "Wow, ninety bucks! Ninety dollars!" (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's wonderful.

Pratt: Yes, and I thought, "Hey, maybe I could make some money." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Now, Susie Peters not only advocated for Native artists and got 5:00them with people who could further promote their work, but she occasionally sold pieces, too. But you don't know if it was through her influence or simply how this woman got word of your work?

Pratt: I do not. I do not. I'm sure it was through Father Bach, but it came from one of those avenues. Years later, her house was hit by a crashed jet and just burned everything down.

Little Thunder: Wow. That's an amazing story about recovering the artwork, too, and seeing this neglected work and helping Father Bach, sort of. That probably was a tremendous experience.

Pratt: There was a lot of art. See, Charles went to his senior year at St. Patrick's, and Charles had some idea about that. He gathered all of that artwork up. There was still a lot of it up there. There were buffalos and all 6:00kinds--everything was up there in that attic on the fourth floor. We used to go up there and mill around. There was a casket up there. We'd go up there and play around. All of this art was up there, and I had no idea who these guys were until later.

I had some paintings there, and I painted the [Kateri] Tekakwitha, who is a patron saint. I did a six-foot painting of her on a board that we used, and it ended up in the attic. Then Jack Davis recovered it and took it home, and he had it in his house. I had it nailed on my wall, reversed, and I hung tools on it. (Laughs) I was moving from that house, and Jack saw it and said, "What are you doing with that?" I said, "Well, take it." He still has it somewhere. I painted it in probably '59, '58, something like that.

Little Thunder: Now, were you pretty influenced by your maternal grandfather?

Pratt: Yes, absolutely. He got us interested in sculpting. We didn't have a lot of toys, so we had clay. We had clay, or he had river mud or whatever, just different things. He would show us how to make things and animals. I can remember in kindergarten, when I was in school at kindergarten in Wichita, Kansas, I mostly lived with Laura Birdwoman and my grandfather. My mother worked in Wichita a couple years, so I would go up there and would ride the train back and forth with my grandfather. He would take us to the river, and we would sculpt and do things like that. I remember some kid saying--we were making people, and they said, "You put legs on that man." The rest of them never put legs on it, but I put legs on this guy. I always remember that for some reason. 8:00I don't know why. (Laughter) Put legs on a piece of sculpture. We sculpted as long as I was little. That's what we played with. I made cowboys and Indians and animals.

Little Thunder: Now, after high school what did you do?

Pratt: I went into the Marine Corps, and I continued to draw and do things like that. I designed several company logos and platoon logos and things like that. Did a few little things like that while I was in the Marine Corps. Then I got out and--

Little Thunder: How many years were you in?

Pratt: Three years. Three years. I served one year in Vietnam. I got out, and I started drawing again because I remembered I made that ninety dollars. I remembered that, so I started drawing. By then, Charles was doing some things, so I kind of--

Little Thunder: Was he showing with any galleries yet?

Pratt: Yes, he was. There was a gallery at Classen Circle. I can't remember the name of it, but it was an antique store, and it was a gallery. I did a couple little paintings, and they took them, and they started selling some stuff. I can remember I was in that gallery with Kelly Haney, and I remember some of the things he was doing. I was still doing flat art, you know, that non-dimensional, just flat art.

Little Thunder: Just outlining?

Pratt: Yes, and I did that for a long time because that's what I was familiar with. That's what I had seen from everybody. Then I got acquainted with Doc Tate [Nevaquaya] and started meeting a lot of other artists and started doing some shows. So I started to evolve a little bit, started to change a little bit, kind of in between realism and flat art, got in that area that a lot of guys are 10:00moving through. I was influenced by Nevaquaya, and I still was influenced by those other artists.

My sister was married to Bill Topahote, who was a Kiowa artist. I used to watch him paint, so I was influenced by several different people besides those old artists, and Carl Sweezy and [Woody] Crumbo and those guys, [Woody] Big Bow, all those kind of guys, Acee Blue Eagle. I remember the glass pitchers and the drinking glasses that were sold at the gas stations. All those things influenced me.

I had no formal training. Had no formal training at all. I thought when I got out of the Marine Corps and went to college that I wanted to be an artist. I took a couple of art classes. The instructor, he'd take my artwork, and he would just tear me up. "Now, see this painting here? Don't do this!"

Little Thunder: Where were you?

Pratt: At Edmond.

Little Thunder: Edmond, okay, University of Central Oklahoma.

Pratt: Yes. That instructor would just tear me up. "Don't do this! See what he's doing here?" I thought, "Well, obviously, I can't be an artist," so I quit. I changed. Ended up in law enforcement with a law enforcement degree, but it took me a while. I was already painting by then, though, and changed my degree to law enforcement. By then I was selling a few items at that gallery there in Oklahoma City. Then Doris Littrell--Charles had a little store there at that time in south Oklahoma City, and so I had some things in there. I think Doris eventually asked me to bring some things to her, and so I started showing with Doris Littrell for quite a while, and the Art Market. I used to go to the Tulsa Art Market and do a lot of shows with them. Got acquainted with a lot of different 12:00artists. I just kind of took a little bit from everybody. I saw what somebody was doing, and they were being successful, so I kind of followed that around. I'm just a big copier. I copy.

Little Thunder: It's hard to come back from that. Other artists have had that experience, too, of someone being so critical of your work that you almost want to put it down. It sounds like you were fortunate that your brother wouldn't let you, and you just had to do it anyway.

Pratt: Yes, it was a release. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed it more than I probably was selling. I was just fortunate enough that I did sell some things, and I became acquainted with a lot of people. I had already been painting a while when I saw Merlin [Little Thunder]'s things. The first piece I remember of 13:00his was this cowboy leaning up against a wall with his leg up, and had a hat on and a striped shirt. I always remembered that piece. I said, "Wow! That is really good." I liked his style and what he was doing.

I looked at a lot of Rabbit, Bill Rabbit, and a lot of different people. I saw some sculpting, and Charles was doing some sculpting. I just tried everything. I tried sculpting. I tried jewelry making. I tried welding, burned all my clothes up. Just burned my clothes up trying to weld! (Laughter) I said, "I can't weld." Burned my shoelaces, had holes in all my clothes. Charles was just laughing at me, trying to teach me to weld, but I couldn't weld.

Little Thunder: But when you got your law enforcement degree, did you know you were going to go in as a forensic artist?

Pratt: No, absolutely not.

Little Thunder: How did that come about?

Pratt: By that time, I was with the Midwest City Police Department, and I had 14:00already had a few little shows right there in town. Had a few little shows, and I really didn't do a lot of Indian art at Midwest City. I copied a lot of other paintings.

Little Thunder: More western?

Pratt: Classical. No, really wasn't even western, just some classical stuff. I didn't even know what I was doing. I was watercoloring, and then I did some oils. I had no idea what I was doing. The techniques, I had no idea about the techniques and just had to fight my way through it and make a lot of mistakes.

Figured out how to manipulate watercolor and how to manipulate oil painting. I had no instructions. I just knew that I had a passion, that I wanted to do it. I stumbled through, made a lot of mistakes. Guys would say, "You did what with that? Wait, how did you do that?" (Laughter) I just figured out what would work. I'd use things like lighter fluid and just all kind of crazy things.

Then I eventually evolved from watercolors to oil and then went to acrylics and 15:00found that acrylics was a lot faster. It dried quicker. You'd have to wait forever for oils to dry, and so it was just an evolvement for me, stumble through and find the best way. Then I started visiting with artists and asking them questions, and they would tell me things, "Well, you can do this and you do that." It's been a struggle for me, really, because I had no formal training.

Little Thunder: So you were working for the Midwest [City] police force, and an opening comes about for a forensic artist?

Pratt: Well, no it didn't. We had a killing. In fact, there was about seven or eight killings in the metro area. They were drive-bys. We didn't call them drive-bys in those days. They were home invasions, and we didn't call them home invasions. A guy was robbing people and shooting them. I mean, he was just 16:00literally executing them. Drive down the street, shoot them, jump out and rob them, and jump in the car and drive off.

We had several in Midwest City. One of the detectives came up to me and said, "This lady"-- it's Christmastime, and he said, "Her husband was killed when he answered the door." They killed him, and when she ran down the hall, they shot her in the face. She was in the hospital, and they said, "We don't think she's going to make it." He said, "Do you think you could go over there and make a drawing with her?" I said, "Well, sure."

Pratt: Just like everything else I've ever done, I just stumbled through it. I had no idea the technique or anything, but I made a drawing based on what she told me. They did a neighborhood because someone had seen a car that matched, and they were doing a neighborhood. They knocked on a door and showed this young girl the drawing, and she said, "You got him. That's my husband." He was like seventeen or eighteen years old, and she was like sixteen. They were glue 17:00sniffers, and they were robbing people, robbing and killing them.

Little Thunder: So your first forensics sketch, you got the guy.

Pratt: Was a success, yes!

Little Thunder: What year was this, Harvey?

Pratt: That was probably about '67, '68, somewhere in there. I can't even remember the name of the guy, honestly. A guy told me the other day. He remembered that case and told me the name, and it just escapes me. I don't remember anymore. If I had not been successful that time, I'd probably have never done another one, but I've done probably five thousand drawings all over the country.

Little Thunder: Once that happened, then word sort of got out?

Pratt: Yes. People started coming to me saying, "Hey, can you come do this? Can you come do this?" A lot of the things in forensic art--I won't say a lot, but several substantial things are things that I developed for law enforcement that was not being done.

Little Thunder: Can you give an example or two?

Pratt: Well, the interview techniques. My interview techniques are more in-depth than anybody else's, even to this day. I developed soft tissue reconstruction, which was not being done on unidentified human remains. I developed that technique. I advanced the composite art, changed it from composite art to witness description art in interviews. The photography that we did on unidentified bodies was terrible. We made changes in all of that, in photographing unidentified bodies and human remains.

Little Thunder: Just to pick up on this transition from composite to witness description, for those of us that aren't as familiar with the field, can you explain what that is?

Pratt: Well, initially, when we do art like that, trying to determine what someone looks like, we ask questions about eyes, lips, nose, hair, shapes of the 19:00face, ears, hairstyle. You go through that whole process, and that's why they say that's a composite of facial characteristics. A lot of people still use that term, but I use the term "witness description drawing" as opposed to a composite because we talk about all the compositive things and put them together. My interview techniques are more in-depth than most people because we can have a face that is very similar, but maybe the body's different or the type of hair they have. We changed things from, instead of just saying "brown hair," we have the variations of hair.

Little Thunder: You're trying to get a more whole picture, holistic.

Pratt: Yes, we try to make them think. That's part of the problem is we don't make our witnesses think about things enough. We let them get away with things. "He was between twenty and thirty." Well, I don't let them do that, see. And 20:00hairstyles, if they're white or black or Native American or Hispanic. If he's a white person, "What area would you say he's from? Scandinavia, Germany--" You make people say, "Oh, well, he's Scandinavian," or, "He's biracial." See, my interviews are more in-depth. I make people work. I don't let them get away with just saying, "He's a white guy." "He was maybe twenty to thirty, about 5'9." You're chunky, you're powerful, you're soft, fat, all those little things that make a person different.

Little Thunder: Which is sort of what an artist would be noticing anyway. That's kind of what an artist would notice.

Pratt: Yes, so you have to make witnesses better. You have to make them better. Once you go to court, they're more organized. They're more confident, and that's 21:00what I try to do. Then I'm able to give you, an investigator, this information, not only a drawing but you have other things about them. That helps them.

If you're interviewing people, like a serial murder case, and you have several suspects, you have a composite, but you also have physical characteristics. You can look at somebody, and you can talk about mannerisms, mannerisms and what people do under stress. Under stress, they might do this, do things, bite his lip. (Gestures) You get him in a room, and you start talking to him and say, "Oh, he's doing the same thing."

So there's a lot of little things that I've developed that are helpful to investigators in the art besides the drawing and besides skull reconstructions and age progressions and witness description drawings and soft tissue 22:00reconstructions. I like to feel like and hope that I've had a contribution to those things that were not being done before.

Little Thunder: After you had been doing this a certain amount of years, did you just officially go to work for the OSBI full time, or have you always been available as they need someone to do it?

Pratt: When I was at Midwest City, I was a detective. I was doing the composites, and OSBI was in a transition. They were starting to grow. They were starting to develop into a bigger agency and new buildings. It just so happened that the chief of Midwest City hired me as a patrolman, now was a director of OSBI, and they were looking for minorities. I had just gotten my degree, and at 23:00that point he said, "You have to have a degree to work for OSBI as an investigator." Once I got my degree, they came and asked me to join them. I thought, "Man, I get to work the whole state." They hired me as a narcotics officer, and I worked narcotics for four years.

Little Thunder: Were you the first Native person they had hired?

Pratt: That I'm aware of, yes, first guy. Now, there could've been somebody a long time ago. I looked at some old photographs, and there was a guy that looked like he could have been part Indian. They weren't a very big agency. I had been with OSBI a couple of years, and we did the David Hall investigation, Governor David Hall. He was after the agency because we were investigating him. He was going to fire the last ten guys hired, and I was one of those guys that was going to get fired. I thought, "I've made a terrible mistake here." (Laughter) I even took a cut in pay to go to work for OSBI, but I wanted to work a bigger area.

They knew that I did art, so they let me do witness descriptions and things like that. I didn't do skull reconstructions at that point because I was really leery about handling human remains. I think that's just based on my culture. Those old people talk about handling certain things and religious articles, body, so I was always skeptical of doing that. After a while, I said, "Man, I really want to do that. I really want to reconstruct a human being and get them identified."

Fortunately, I've been really lucky because I would try those areas and I would be successful. So it just kind of perked me up, kept me going into doing those kind of things and evolving. I said, "I can do this better." Unidentified 25:00bodies, I used to draw and try to fix them up with a pencil. Then I decided I could do that with an airbrush. I learned how to airbrush photographs on unidentified bodies, so that changed the whole technique of how we photographed a body. We took the distortion out of the face. We washed them. We closed their mouth. We did a lot of things that we never did before. Before, they would go to the morgue, and the body would be just terrible. They'd photograph and leave, and you'd say, "We can't see nothing."

Little Thunder: Again, you're kind of thinking like an artist. It's your background as an artist that's giving you some of these insights that let you develop these techniques.

Pratt: Yes, absolutely. No one was doing it. Just like everything else, there was no one doing it. I just said, "Well, hell, no one told me I couldn't do that," and so you end up doing it. (Laughter) They'd say, "Well, that works. That made a deal." The guys said, "Well, nobody did that. There's nobody ever done that before." I think it's just the whole concept of me growing up and not 26:00having the formal training about something but having a passion for something and figuring it out, and it's working.

Just like Charles always told me. When Charles started welding--he said he welded for three years, and he did some great pieces of sculpture. One day, he went to the weld shop and said, "I need some welding rods," and the guy said, "You need some flux?" Charles said, "Flux? What's flux?" He said, "Well, you've got to have flux to weld." Charles said, "I've been welding for three years. I've never used flux." But he just had that touch. He had that magic touch.

Little Thunder: I remember that story. (Laughs)

Pratt: That was a great story. I just thought that. "Flux? What's flux?" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You see, and I can understand now why you see this as a whole continuum. You explained that you've always been doing your art simultaneously 27:00while working in this very specialized area. When you first got with Doris Littrell's gallery, was that the first art gallery that handled your work on a more professional basis?

Pratt: Well, that gallery at Classen Circle, they handled me, but Doris, I think, really helped me the most. Doris Littrell really helped me the most.

Little Thunder: In what ways?

Pratt: She encouraged me, and she promoted my work, and she pushed it and sold it.

Little Thunder: Did you get entered in some out-of-state shows?

Pratt: Yes, she would take my art, and I didn't even have to go. She would send it to Gallup and different places. She'd say, "Oh, you won. You won again." (Laughter) I would just say, "Wow, I didn't even have to go, and I won something over there." She did a lot. Doris Littrell did a lot for me. Doris Littrell did a lot for me.

Little Thunder: What was one of the early awards that was especially exciting for you?

Pratt: I did a show in Anadarko, and--

Little Thunder: During Indian Fair, was it, at their art show?

Pratt: Yes, but they had a special show. They had a special deal. I did the cover for the [Anadarko Indian] Exposition one time. I did the back page. I thought of spirits, and that's what I called them. I had all these Indian men, four guys on horseback, and the men were naked. They were on horseback, and they were kind of riding through the clouds. I had this woman come up to me, and she just jumped all over me. She said, "What are you doing?" (Laughter) You couldn't see anything, but she said, "You've got to be true to what's going on." I said, "These are just spirits." She said, "You have to pay attention to what you're doing." She got after me pretty good.

Little Thunder: Was she involved with the show in any way?

Pratt: No, no, she was just an Indian woman.

Little Thunder: Just a passerby. Just an Indian woman, one of those older Indian women. (Laughs)

Pratt: Got after me. Same like when they used to get after you because someone would try to paint something with a Native American church or peyote or something. I never did that because I saw them chew people out and get after them for doing that, so I never did do that, but I've been in a gallery when people will come in there and get after somebody. She got after me on that. I said, "I have to do more research," so I started reading and looking at things and looking at magazines and catalogs and seeing styles. That criticism, once again, made me do something about it instead of just drawing. Now I try to be more specific about tribes, and I don't try to mix them up. I just try to be more specific about detail, and it was all because that lady got after me for 30:00making those naked Indians.

Little Thunder: Those spirits. (Laughs)

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: So you kind of moved from what had been an intertribal focus to being more tribally specific.

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: What were some of your themes, your early subject matter, early on?

Pratt: Mostly horses, guys on horseback, kind of warrior-type stuff. I had that kind of that mentality. Then it changed again to more of a cultural environment, cultural, family art, people, and it wasn't so much focused on war, battle, stuff like that. I still do that, but it broadened me out a little bit. It made me expand into some other areas because I didn't know. I didn't know about certain styles. I had my own concept about certain things. I painted war dancers 31:00and stuff like that. Now I do things that have a historical value and research.

I buy books. One of my downfalls is I buy books. (Laughter) I buy books, and, man, I'll go somewhere--I've got a library in there that's just full of books. I got books there. I got books in the back bedroom. I got books upstairs. I got books everywhere. I got stacks of books over by the bed when I read at night, just looking at stuff, seeing people and what they're doing and how they did it, what they dressed in certain time periods.

Little Thunder: Were you already supporting a family then, too?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Okay. So you've got a few economic pressures, too, although you're wanting to really--

Pratt: Yes, but my art was kind of the gravy. If I sold something, that was always something I could use that money to do--Charles always taught me, he said, "Harvey, you've got to put your money back into what you're doing. You can't just go buy that car. You can't go buy that gun. You need to put part of your money back into your art."

Charles taught me a lot of things that I probably would not have done because no one ever told me these things. When you grow up without a father (my grandfather taught me a lot of things) you're lost a lot of times because there's no one there to tell you that you can't do that. "You're not supposed to do that. You need to behave."

Even though those old people told us all those things, those things came back to me as I got older, and I realized, "Oh, that's what they meant. That's what she's talking about." Aunt Laura would say--we'd go to bed, and she'd say, "Put your shoes under the bed." I said, "Why?" She said, "You might have to get up 33:00and run." I thought, "What would I run to? We're living in--where would I run to?"

As I got older and thought about that, they were being raided in the middle of the night. A lot of times, they would jump and run with no moccasins. She said, "You need to have your shoes. You might have to run." Now it dawned on me, that's what she talks about, born in the 1870s. They grew up, and they heard those stories and said, "We had to run with no shoes on." "Well, put your shoes there. You've got your shoes."

Things like that you never thought about. Call your name in the middle of the night, and you'll say, "Aunt Laura, we're all here." She'd be out on the porch, hollering our names. She'd say, "I'm calling your spirit in." I thought, "Calling my spirit in? What are you calling my spirit in for?" Later, as you got older, it was like, golly, how sweet is that, that she's thinking about my 34:00spirit and bringing us in at night so something don't get us, something don't capture your spirit at night in the dark. There's a lot of little things like that that I have to recall and think about, say, "That's what that meant. That's what that means." I'm blessed in a lot of ways that I heard those kind of stories.

I think of a story. When we were little and we would get hurt, they'd say, "Indian boys don't cry. You don't cry. You only cry when your heart is hurt but not if you get hit in the head with something. You don't cry. You make the sound of the bear." (Laughter) See, all the little white kids in baseball would hit a rock and hit you in the head, and instead of crying, we would be saying things like, "Honksh! Honksh!" They'd look around and say, "What are you doing? What is that?" "That's the sound of the bear. That's what the mama bear does. She makes that sound."

So we all made that sound. You forget about that until late one night, you're 35:00sitting there, and you stub your toe. I used to get stung by scorpions. I'd say that instead of something else. "Honksh." I told that story at the Veterans meeting one time, and Gordon Yellowman thought that was pretty interesting. He hadn't heard that story. There's a lot of little things like that that make you culturally think about things, and you want to paint those kind of things.

Little Thunder: When did you first do your first print?

Pratt: In those days, in the early '80s, prints were, man, I mean it was expensive to me because you're raising a family, and you're trying to make it. You're paying the house payment, car payments, and all sorts of stuff, and they want four thousand dollars to do a series of prints. I had to save my money to 36:00do a print. The first good print I did--and I waited. I did several pieces of art until I thought I really had one. It was called Winter Visitors. It was a bunch of Indians on horseback, coming through the snow out of the trees. That was my first print.

Then I did a couple of pen and inks that I sold. I sold those pen and inks for ten dollars apiece. I saw them on eBay about a year ago, and I did two of them. A set of cowboys and a set of Indians. I saw them sold on eBay for $250 apiece. I was selling them for ten dollars when I first started selling them, (Laughter) and they were framed. They're all out of print. They're gone. I don't have them anymore. People ask me about them all the time. So it was the Winter Visitors and those medicine warriors and those cowboys, and the cowboys was myself and 37:00three other OSBI agents, but I put them on horseback.

Little Thunder: You started experimenting with sculpture in the mid-'80s. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about your first attempt at sculpture in a sort of big way?

Pratt: Actually, I always had clay and was always doing something. I fired some pieces out of ceramic when I was at Midwest City at the police department. I made some sculptures out of clay, and I took them to a foundry and had them fired, and they turned out. I didn't sell them. I didn't sell those first pieces. I just kept them.

Little Thunder: Were they figures?

Pratt: Yes, they were busts, people. I did several of those, and I didn't try to sell them. Then later on, I thought, "Well, I think I'm going to make one." I 38:00made a full-sized piece out of ceramic and dried it for like three months to let it all dry out and make sure it had no bubbles in it, all them stories. To me, it was huge. It was probably twenty inches tall, this big, (Gestures) and I took it to the foundry. I struggled with it, now, for three months. They put it in there, and it exploded, (Laughter) just exploded because I left an air bubble in it. I thought, "Well, I'm not doing that anymore."

I got to visiting around and started messing with the clay. I went down to Scissortail Foundries in south Oklahoma City and hung around there a little while and visited with a couple of them ol' boys there. They showed me some tricks. Charles was doing some things by then, so I kind of bootlegged some stuff there. They said, "We'll fire it for you, but you've got to clean it up." 39:00So I did all the foundry work myself, which cut my price. I thought, "Boy, if I can ever afford to do this, I'm not doing this foundry work." It is dirty, hard work, grinding and polishing and welding. I said, "That's just more work than--." I ended up doing several pieces like that, and fortunately I sold them.

I like sculpting. I like to sculpt. I chain sawed. I chain sawed because it was something I thought I'd like to try to do, and I wanted to experiment with it. I chain sawed. I used a regular chain saw. A regular chain saw! My first original piece is right around the corner there. (Gestures)

Little Thunder: Yes, you have some beautiful collaborative sculptures, too, I guess, chain saw sculptures you did with your son.

Pratt: Yes, exactly. Later on, I figured out there's an artist's blade that you use. You don't use this great big round thing, you know. Then I ended up getting some grinders. Once again, I didn't know what I was doing. I just wanted to do 40:00it, and I did it so hard because there was no one there to tell me to do it and how to do it. I just did everything the hard way. I did everything the hard way. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When you and Charlie have shared booths, which I've seen you do at Red Earth a number of times over the years, has he ever gotten an idea for a sculpture from one of your paintings or vice versa, or from one of his sculptures, have you gotten an idea?

Pratt: Well, I'm sure we probably have, but we probably didn't tell one another. "I like that idea, but I don't want you to know that I stole your idea." (Laughter) But yes, there's several things that Charles did that I would kind of change and make it mine. I think we all do that. I think we all do. I think we all see something and change it a little bit and make it yours. You're influenced by all these people around you.

Doc Tate Nevaquaya, he influenced me a great deal, and things that other artists did, Troy Anderson. Just a lot of guys just really, really influence you. Guys that you were growing up with influenced you. You saw what they were doing. You liked what they did, so you incorporated it. You saw the success they were having, so you evolve. If you don't evolve, if you don't adapt, you're destined to be in that same spot you started at, so you've got evolve and adapt with just almost anything you do.

Little Thunder: Have you had a show at Southern Plains Indian Museum?

Pratt: Yes, I have. Yes, I did a one-man show there, and I've had some things there.

Little Thunder: Was it in the '90s? Do you remember?

Pratt: No, it was in the, probably 2007, 2008.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay.

Pratt: I'm the Chairman of the National Indian Arts and Crafts Board. I'm the 42:00chairman. I've been there a year and something now.

Little Thunder: It's a four-year term, isn't it?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Great.

Pratt: Yes, I was on the board, and then all of a sudden, they said, "Well, you're the chairman." I said, "What?" (Laughter) It ended up I'm the chairman of that. I said, "Okay. You've got to help me because I've just only been here less than a year. You've got to help me out." She said, "Oh, we'll help you."

Little Thunder: Now, in 2007, that was also when you were Red Earth Honored One, wasn't it?

Pratt: That was in 2005, I was the Red Earth Honored One.

Little Thunder: Two thousand five.

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: How did you feel? What was the impact of that on your--.

Pratt: My brother was a Red Earth Honored One before that. We were the first brother team to make that. We were the first ones. There was all sorts of guys 43:00honored that influenced me. Allan Houser, I did a show with Allan Houser one time in Chicago, with Charlie and Allan Houser. I've got a picture of us up there. Doug Hyde. All those guys. I was just a beginner, but they treated me so well. They helped me, and they showed me things.

Allan Houser was always so kind to me. He always called me by my name. I thought, "Man, this guy--I'm dust on his moccasins, and he calls, 'Hey, Harvey, how you doing?'" Always made me feel good about that, Allan Houser did, and Doug Hyde. Charles took me all over. Once Charles was running around, he'd say, "Come on, go with me." We'd go to Colorado. He took me to a lot of shows.

Little Thunder: You did quite a bit of traveling together.

Pratt: We did a lot of shows together, Charlie and I, early on. I'd take off from work, and we'd go for a weekend. I'd be so thrilled because I'd make four hundred dollars. Charles would make two thousand, and I'd make four hundred 44:00dollars. I'd think, "Man, I am on top of the world." The Red Earth thing, I was surprised that I got that because I was competing with Mike Larsen. Mike Larsen was up for it that same time, and I thought, "Well, hell, I'm never going to get this. Mike Larsen will get this."

I was just kind of like I'm standing in a corner like it wasn't no big deal. I'm whistling Dixie. It's not going to happen, you know. (Laughter) When they called my name, I almost fell. I was just shocked, really honored. I am stunned that they picked me instead of Mike Larsen. It was a great honor for me. It was a great honor for me because there was a lot of guys there that I really admired. It goes way back, you know, goes back a long ways, that were Honored Ones.

Little Thunder: In 1991, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, requiring certification or proof of tribal membership. I was wondering if you remember the kind of impact it had on artists and galleries at that time.

Pratt: I thought that they were going to stop people from plagiarizing and from taking art, calling it Indian art, and not being Indian art coming from other countries, guys that are very talented, but they're just copying and selling it. I was so happy that happened, that that impacted and saved us local artists from people that were doing art and saying they're Indians. To me, that had a great deal of influence. I felt like there was somebody out there that was going to help us, going to take care of us.

I can remember there was a lot of stuff coming in from Mexico and from the 46:00Philippines and from Korea and Taiwan. I thought, "This ain't right. This aint fair." But when that started to happen I felt like there was somebody there to help us, protect us. Someone's there. We're just not on our own.

To me, that meant a lot. Maybe I didn't really understand it, but I still felt like there was somebody there that we can turn to when someone's standing there next to you and they're selling something that looks just like these jewelers make, and they're selling it at half the price or less. It looks just like what these guys are doing.

Little Thunder: So much of the art business is that business part. I know that Gina [Pratt] is a great help to you. What is her role in the art business?

Pratt: Oh, Gina is my manager. She saves me. (Laughter) Gina takes care of me. 47:00She catalogs everything. She photographs everything. That's stuff that I wasn't doing prior to Gina. I did very little cataloging, but Gina photographs everything. She catalogs it. We price it. She made me a businessman. She turned me into a business instead of just something that I would do. She turned it into a business, gave me a lot more exposure, created websites for me, just took care of me, did a lot of things that I wouldn't do or didn't think about doing or didn't care about doing. She turned me into a businessman as far as my art goes.

Little Thunder: Would you say that now most of your artwork is sold through galleries and your home? Is it kind of split between the two? Are shows more 48:00important, or all three?

Pratt: I think really all three. Our website, we sell off the website. That's another avenue for us that we didn't have. We sell things on the website, that market that we hadn't reached before, whether it be a print or we can offer them giclees at different sizes on paper or on canvas. We ship. It's created a source of income for us that we didn't have before, and Gina did that for me. Gina did that.

I don't do a lot of gallery shows. I do some galleries, but I don't do a lot because I can't produce in volume. I had to make a decision at one point in my career: "Do I want to be an artist, or do I want to be a policeman? What is more stable for me?" So I cut back on some things, cut back on some galleries, but 49:00the website has opened up another market for me. We do very few shows. I do very few shows. We do some local galleries, and every now and then I'll send to a gallery somewhere else. I do a lot of law enforcement stuff now. Actually, I started doing a lot of western stuff for law enforcement on the websites, so I've kind of diversified. I do some sculpting, some designs.

Little Thunder: Exploring more western subject matter.

Pratt: Yes because that's a source for us with law enforcement. We did the Oklahoma centennial blanket, and that opened a lot of doors for us, selling the blanket and the Oklahoma plate. All those little things that Gina did for me, that she did for me, I wouldn't have done. I wouldn't have marketed them like 50:00that. I wouldn't have done it. I would have just put it in a gallery and said, "Oh, well. Who cares? I might sell one here and one there." The computer age exploded for us.

Little Thunder: Did Frankoma [Pottery] approach you about the Oklahoma plate, or did you submit a proposal?

Pratt: I submitted a proposal to the Centennial Commission. Same with the blanket and the plate. They wondered if I was going to send it overseas, and I wouldn't do it. I said I wouldn't do it. "It's Oklahoma. I'm going to give it to Frankoma. We'll do it here in Oklahoma." The same with--it was last year. We're a law enforcement family. Gina and my boys are policemen, or were policemen or agents. We invented a tool to take pistols apart, so we patented it. We did a lot of things. We market that.

Little Thunder: Interesting.

Pratt: It opened up another door, being inventive and creative and having to 51:00stumble your way through things. We did that, once again, when we invented the tool to take Glock pistols, Smith and Wessons, Diamondbacks, Tauruses, Sig [Sauer]s. This tool, if you have a certain device, this tool takes it apart for you, so we're marketing that.

We've got websites for that, and those things would've never happened if it hadn't been for my wife, Gina. I just wouldn't have done it. I said, "Well, who cares? I don't care." It's been a business adventure. Once again, we didn't know what we were doing, but we're in it. We are deep in it, and we've got a lot of money involved in it. We're just bumping our heads, but we're going ahead.

Little Thunder: That's neat. That's an important contribution in a different 52:00way. I'd like to talk a little bit about your techniques, artistic techniques, and philosophy, etcetera. In terms of painting, you still paint primarily in acrylics.

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: On board or canvas is still kind of your primary format.

Pratt: Both, paper or canvas. It just depends. I may not paint for a week, and then all of a sudden, I'm sitting there watching TV or doing something, and I'm doodling, and something comes to me. My style that I paint depends on where I'm going with it. It depends on where I'm going with it. I painted murals at OSBI. I've got a thirty-seven-foot mural at OSBI about the history of the OSBI.

Little Thunder: I didn't realize that. When did you do that one?

Pratt: I did that over a period of time in the last seven years. I designed the 53:00OSBI badge, their anniversary badge, their flag, lapel pins. My little brother and I got a whipping for painting on the walls when we were kids, drawing on the walls. (Laughter) I can remember my brother-in-law whipping my little brother, and I told him, "You can't do that to us!" I took him by the hand, and we left the house. I said, "Well, I'm going home," and they were plumb across town. I was probably four, maybe four. Now I get to paint on the walls, and nobody spanks us. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Not only that, it's very appreciated. (Laughs)

Pratt: Nobody spanks us. Acrylics is probably, right now, my choice, but every now and then I think, "I'd like to do a watercolor." I do some watercolor, still, occasionally. Just depending on what--if you start experimenting and all 54:00of a sudden it looks good, you just stay in that particular style. Don't try to change it because that's what came out of it, so I just stay right there. Someone will say, "That don't even look like yours." I say, "Well, I don't know. It's mine." It's not what you would think would be mine because it's different, and that's just the way it is.

Little Thunder: You've kind of explained how your style has changed from that flat style. How about your use of color? How has that changed, do you think?

Pratt: Well, to give you an example: white. I used to just put white on. Then I found out later on that white is not just white. White is a lot of stuff. Then I noticed that Doc Tate always put a little white in every color that he used. He told me that. He said, "I put a little white in everything, everything." So I 55:00did that for a while.

I used to buy stuff right straight out of the tube, but then I discovered I could blend things. Once again, it's just by listening to other guys tell me little tricks and secrets that I learned and would try it and see if that would work for me, how to build up washes and make it turn into something instead of trying to be real muddy. Sometimes you get so overworked and muddy, so I would build with acrylics.

Gina gets after me because I'll do a painting, I'll just do something, and, "Oh, I don't like that." Instead of throwing that canvas away, I'll take it in there, and I'll soak it in water and scrape it off. She'll say, "What are you doing? That canvas, just throw it away!" It's because I'm a tightwad. I am so stingy. I say, "Well, no, I can make that work. I can make that work." (Laughter)

Really, I don't know whether I'm stingy or not or a tightwad, but I'll say, "I 56:00know I can fix that." She said, "Will you quit trying to fix everything and just go pay somebody to do that?" Well, something's wrong. I can fix it up. "Go pay somebody to do that. Go get somebody else to do that." I think, "Oh, I can do that." (Laughter) She's always after me about it.

Colors, to me, it depends on how it starts to develop, how it starts to grow, whatever I'm doing. If I'm painting and all of a sudden it looks good, and I just stay with that, then everything is like that. That's kind of the way it is. Sometimes it'll start some way, and then the second subject is better than the first, so I go back and change the first to the second. It just kind of depends 57:00on how things develop for me because I'm still just kind of hunting and searching and trying to develop something.

I really don't think that I have a particular style because it'll change. Some people might look at some things and say, "That's Harvey Pratt," but I don't think I'm like that. I think I change. I look at that Pawnee Killer Not Afraid of Pawnee. That painting to me is different from that other painting I did there. You could look at that and say, "That's not even nothing like that." I think I'm still always looking and searching and changing and trying to develop and adapt.

Little Thunder: You've done different themes over the years, and I remember you doing some Little People paintings.

Pratt: Yes, I like Little People stories. I've heard them all my life. My older brother, Otto, is between me and Charles. We lived on a river. When we grew up in El Reno, we could walk one block away, and we're in a pasture. Then another mile and a half, we're on the river. Growing up, I can remember my little brother, Tony, we went with our older brothers, and we carried all the game that they killed. I can remember Tony carrying a jack rabbit, and it's dragging the ground. That's how small he was. That's how small he was, but he had to be with everybody. He said, "I can do whatever they can do," the littlest guy.

We carried the game. We're out there, and we would stay on the river for four or 59:00five days. Nobody worried about us. If my kids didn't come home one night, I would be terrified, but we lived out on that river for days at a time, eating what we hunted and building fires and just staying out there. Grandpa and Aunt Laura, "That's okay. That's okay," because that's the way they did, probably, a long time ago. If [Gina's] gone more than a couple of hours, and she's out here roaming around on this 120 acres, I'm picking up the cell phone. "Where are you? Where are you?" (Laughter) I think about how we did when we were growing up. Nobody worried about it, didn't lock the doors, never locked the doors at the house. People would just walk in.

I remember my grandpa was being interviewed by the Smithsonian. I've got it over there. I found it, and I ordered it. He's talking, and you can hear the screen 60:00door banging, "Bang! Bang," in the background. You can hear that train whistle going by. I remember that. I don't know how I got off on that.

Little Thunder: Different subjects. Bigfoot is another theme in your work.

Pratt: Yes, it is. Interesting. Interesting. By then, Gina had me on a website, and I was getting like a thousand hits a day, something like that on my website, about a thousand hits a day, sometimes even more. Anyway, this guy called me up and said, "I've got a project." He didn't come right out and tell me, but I could see him kind of fishing around. He said, "I can see that you're a Native American artist, and you're a police officer, and you do forensic art." Eventually, he said, "I'm a researcher for Bigfoot, and we're looking for Sasquatch."

They called him Sasquatch and Bigfoot. Indians called him all sorts of things. All the tribes have. Since then, I've learned a lot about him. He said, "I want you to come to California and interview some people that saw Bigfoot." I said, "Okay." He quoted me a price, and I said, "That's fine, but my assistant's got to come with me." He said, "Okay." My assistant was Gina. He paid for everything. We spent a week up there, and I interviewed, what, thirty people. Did thirty drawings from people. I always thought Bigfoot was going to be gorilla-looking, and he didn't. He looked human most of the time. Then you hear these stories. They were all in their culture. It's in their culture, and they had all different names for him.

We had a good time. We went to Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, California, Idaho. After I'd been doing it about two months, he said something to me, and I said, "You know what? I'd have done this for nothing. This is so much fun. I would have done this for nothing." He said, "Well, why didn't you tell me that before? You could have told me that before." (Laughter) He comes out. He comes and spends some time with us. He's writes, and he's doing some other books, and I consult with him.

Little Thunder: And he's used some of your pieces as illustrations, too?

Pratt: Yes, I did two books with him. I did two books. I did a lot of illustrations for him and interviews, and I liked to gave him some credibility. It changed the perspective of how people perceived what Bigfoot or the Biped was. We did this research and found stories of him that went back into the 1870s. We found a painting done by Silver Moon, a Kiowa, that he did in the 63:00mid-'70s of Bigfoot in 1870. We found that picture.

Actually, Sherman [Chaddlesone] gave it to me. Since then, I've picked up artifacts and things like that and some great stories. I think we're going to Canada to interview some people in a village way up in Canada that have been bothered by Bigfoot. Have some great stories about it. It's been a good adventure, eye-opening. When you can find cave drawings of Bigfoot that are seven thousand years old, it's not just something that happened recently. It's been around a long time. You think back, and I think of Indians talking. They would say that something was patting on the tipi or scratching on the tipi. You don't go out in the woods at certain times.

A long time ago, they would go somewhere and sing songs as they're traveling, 64:00trail songs, and do all sorts of things like that. They say it's to keep the ghosts away and keep the spirits away, and then you read these things about Bigfoot and what he does now. He pats on people's tents while they're camping, and he follows them. It's the same that I heard. I said, "Wow, Bigfoot could've been doing that." Indians will just say it's a spirit, but it's him. He's prowling around doing stuff, teasing you, messing with you. It's been a good story.

Little Thunder: How about humor? How important a role does that play in your work?

Pratt: I think you have to have some humor about what you do, and laugh about not only your mistakes but try to depict things that were funny. My grandpa told me, he said, "Oh, Grandson, white people are funny." He said, "When I was 65:00growing up, white man would carry a little rag around in his pocket and blow his nose in it, fold it up, and put it back in his pocket. He'd save it. We thought that was so silly that they would do that, that they would blow their nose and put it back in their pocket." He said, "That was a funny story to us. We always laughed about that." He said, "And then they built these little houses in the back of their homes. They'd go in there, and they saved that in those little outhouses, save that. We thought that the white man was a funny man." (Laughter)

You think about it. Why not? Why wouldn't you think that kind of humor? That's totally different from the way they did. He said, "Oh, they save all that stuff." I think that's kind of funny. You hear some funny stories, so you try to paint some things like that and remember that. You need to be able to laugh a 66:00little bit about different things.

Little Thunder: How important are titles to your work?

Pratt: You know what? That's a good thing. A lot of guys that I remember when I first started painting, they never titled their stuff. They would just paint something, then a collector would come and say, "What is this?" I did that very same thing when I first started. I wouldn't title things, and they would ask you questions. I hadn't given it that big of thought because I hadn't learned to do specific things and to paint certain issues. I just painted a guy on a horse or something.

Now I have a reason for doing something. After a while, I learned to title everything. It makes a big difference when someone comes up to you and says, "What's this about?" You can tell them what it means, what it's doing. I think that's really important. That means a lot when people know what it's supposed to 67:00be about, what's your painting, and what the story is.

I know a lot of guys didn't do that. Lots of guys didn't do that. That slowly evolved when you started doing shows and people coming up and asking you, "What is this about?" You have to learn and say, "Well, that's the title," so I always try to have a title and a little story with everything that I do. It's important.

Little Thunder: Do you keep track of your ideas in a notebook or sketchbook?

Pratt: Sometimes. Sometimes I have a little idea, and I'll sketch around. I've got little sketches everywhere, you know, different things. I wish I had done that. I wish I had kept a little book. My son does that. My son keeps everything in a sketchbook, all his designs. Whatever he does, he's got it all. I've regretted that I have not done that. I think if I had the opportunity to start 68:00over or to go back and do something, I think I would've done that. I would've tried to have kept all of that in a book.

I did ledger art for--I still do ledger art. I painted on buffalo hides and elk hides. I kept one book, 1863 to1880, and I painted in it at that time those dates, so you can see evolvement and changes. I didn't tear it up. I didn't tear it up. I kept it all in one book, in a ledger book. I said, "One of these days, even though I'm depicting things from a long time ago, my paintings now are going to be like those old paintings were. Somewhere there's going to have some historical value to it."

So, you see, I tried to change it, how people evolved over that twenty years. I kept it all together instead of tearing it up and selling them individually. I sold it all in one book, signed it, and put it on a thing in there and did some 69:00little sketches in the back of it. I wish I'd have kept a book that I had, that I can say, "Let me think of that. I'll maybe do a little quick sketch." But it's all in that one big volume. I've regretted that many times. I wish I'd have done that.

Little Thunder: Do you have a creative routine, per se, or is it just when you get that opportunity to sit down and sketch or paint?

Pratt: It comes from something that triggers something in you. It could be out walking around. It could be something that you see on TV, or someone says something that brings back a memory or a thought that I can see an incident in my mind that I say, "Oh, I need to paint that. That's a good story. That's a 70:00good idea."

It comes from people talking, and it makes you think of something, or they'll tell you a nice story. Sometimes it's just out there walking around, and you see something that you say, "Well, I can see someone coming through there," and so that's what you do. Someone tells you a nice story. To me, it can come from anywhere, anytime, and anything. It can turn into a real quick sketch, and, man, I just get up and go over there and start doing something. She'll say, "What are you doing?" "Well, I've got an idea," and just--

Little Thunder: Do you sketch first before you paint, or do you just paint directly?

Pratt: Not always. Sometimes it's just, man, I've got to do it right then. It's right there, and I've got to, you know. If it's a project I'm thinking about, I do a lot of studying, reading, and looking. I have to kind of build on it, but if it's something spontaneous, man, I'm there. I'm there until two o'clock or back up at six o'clock, and I've got to be doing it. I'll get up some mornings 71:00and come down here. Before I even turn the coffee on, I'm over there doing something. Or all of a sudden at ten o'clock at night, boom, I'm over there. Something just happens.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what was a turning point for you when you could've gone one way but you chose to go another?

Pratt: There was a point in my career as an artist, a Native American artist, that I was really pretty successful. I was doing a lot of stuff, and I was in a lot of galleries. It was starting to take more and more of my time away from my career as a law enforcement officer. I could see that I was doing a lot more, and I was really pretty successful. At that point, I had to make a decision. "Do I want to do this? Am I ready? I can do this when I retire." That was my 72:00thought. "I need to go ahead and be able to retire, and then I can do this artwork."

So I started cutting back because it was consuming me, taking a lot of my time. I still had law enforcement stuff to do. There was a time that I made a conscious decision to do one thing or another, but my rationale was, "I can do this when I retire. I can still do it in the evenings, but I can do this full-time when I retire." I just made that decision.

The thing of it is, see, my last twenty years with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation has just been forensic art. That's all I do. I don't do anything else unless I want to. I can get involved in homicides or whatever, rapes, and 73:00do a little bit, but I can walk away because I'm not a case agent. I can go in, and I do one little part, and that's make a drawing or reconstruct somebody or that sort of stuff, then I'm through. Go to the next one. You, as an investigator, you're stuck with that case for years, maybe. Maybe years. I can do cold cases. I do a lot of cold cases, but I just do a portion. So I do art every day. Sometimes I come home and I don't want to do art because I've been doing it all day.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points of either side of your art, either the forensic or the fine art?

Pratt: I don't know if I've had a low point, really. I think when you can't do 74:00what you want to do, I think that's--I get frustrated when I can't do what I see here, what I want to do, and I can't get there because I don't have the training to do it. I know what I want, but I don't know how to get there. I think that's probably the frustration I have in art, not only in forensic art but in my Native American art. My paintings that I do or a sculpting that I do, I had no formal training. I think that is frustrating for me. A lot of times, I think I wish I had the opportunity to go to an art school and learn something because I've taken from a lot of different artists, but I've never really developed a style.

I said that earlier. I've never really developed a style. I think I do a lot of different things. It's not one style. I think if you go to a school, you might 75:00develop a style because someone teaches you to do a certain way. I've had a lot of teachers. I've had lots of them. I've had all the artists, the Carl Sweezys and the Mopopes, and I've had the Nevaquayas, and I've had the Merlin Little Thunders, and I've had the Charlie Pratts and the Rabbits and the Andersons. I've had a lot of different guys.

I looked at their stuff. Crumbos, you know. Allan Houser. Allan Houser, when I was just a kid, I saw his stuff, and I said, "Wow!" Looked at those at the Southern Plains Museum, and I looked at his art in books. I've been influenced. I've never had an art teacher that molded me to a certain type of person. I've been influenced by so many different people.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points?

Pratt: Man, you know what? In forensics art when you identify somebody as a 76:00killer--I've done forensic art and identified a lot of unidentified bodies that have led the arrest of people. I've identified abducted children. I've aged them through age progressions, and I've identified them. We've found them. I've identified unknown bodies. In the art field, I think that's why I stayed at OSBI and do that, because I get so much job satisfaction out of doing that, just that one portion that solves the case.

I'll tell you, I met a forensic artist, and she said, "Oh, I've got three people on death row." I said, "Wow." I got to thinking about that, and I quit counting at a hundred that I've helped put on death row, killers, murderers, rapists. I just quit counting. I got to a certain point. I said, "I don't even think about 77:00it anymore."

I've done so many serial murder cases. Ted Bundy. I did the I-5 Killer, I did Dennis Rader, the BTK Killer. I did Joe Fisher. I did a whole bunch of serial murder cases, so my highlights are great. I have great job satisfaction with that, and the art field is just the idea that I get to paint my culture. I've been rewarded. I've won awards. I've been named Red Earth Honored One. I feel blessed. I feel blessed about a lot of things, about what I've done in my life. I have a wonderful wife. Blessed.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we forgot to talk about before we take a look at your paintings?

Pratt: No.

Little Thunder: Gina says no, (Laughter) so we're just going to take a moment and look at three examples of your work.

Pratt: I've got the Little People painting in there on the wall. It's all Little People in it. It's called When Little People Danced for Kills His Enemy First.

Little Thunder: Okay. Well, we're ready to go on this one.

Pratt: This is The Bear Healer. You'll see the medicine man standing here and this person that is ill, and his family are all right here with him. The medicine man is doctoring him, and he called the healer. He called the spirit, his helper, to come help, and he came out of those embers and materialized. Nobody sees him, but the medicine man sees him in terms that he's going to help him heal this man that's laying here. He's laying on a bed of cedar and sweet grass, and his medicine bag is laying there.

Little Thunder: This is acrylic on canvas?

Pratt: It's acrylic.

Little Thunder: All right, thank you.

Pratt: (Referring to Sandman sculpture) About thirty-five. He was five foot seven, weighed about 140 pounds. He had a broken arm, right here. His armbands, he had tubular armbands, brass sprung wire, big wire, about as big as your finger, wrapped around his arm there. He broke his arm right here, and they cut 79:00it off of him in pieces, but they cut it in such a way that they could save it. They put those armbands on him when he was real young, and as he grew they wouldn't come off, so they were on him all the time. He had a dent right here in his forehead. Had a dent right there. (Gestures) It wasn't a fracture, but you know when you get an abscess [when] you get hit real hard? That happened to my leg. I got hit, and it abscessed, and it deformed the bone. That's what he had. Somebody hit him in his head, but not hard enough to fracture. They don't know how he died.

Little Thunder: Now, this is your forensic reconstruction?

Pratt: Yes, this is Sandman. His body was found on Wolf Creek, up by Woodward. He was found in '72. They traced him back to the battle between the Cheyennes 80:00and the Arapahos and the Kiowas and the Comanches when the Cheyennes moved the arrows against them. He was killed up there.

My great-great-grandfather, White Thunder, who was an arrow keeper, was also killed in that battle. He gave up his life because as an arrow keeper, the Bow Strings come to him the year before and wanted him to renew the arrows so they could go on an adventure. He wouldn't do it, so they whipped him with their quirts. He did the ceremony, and he told them, "It's not going to be good," and they all got killed. They all got killed. So he had gotten killed at that battle at Wolf Creek when they fought with the Kiowas and Comanches. He gave up his life then. Then we found this guy, and it's a skull reconstruction. I've got the copy of the earrings back there in storage that I probably should have put them on there. He's a nice-looking man. He's about thirty five years old, five foot 81:00seven, 140 pounds, 145 pounds.

Little Thunder: That's amazing. All right, and the title of this one?

Pratt: This is When the Little People Danced for He Kills His Enemy First. That's my brother's name, Kills His Enemy First. You see these Little People. Some of them are in transition of disappearing, and some of them are in transition of changing into something else. I put a little Bigfoot in there and some amphibian people and some people changing into flying creatures, the magic that is going on. There's spiders crawling on their arms, and one guy has blue eyes. Their feathers are flying because of the medicine. Kills His Enemy First is singing there, and they've got his eyes closed, and all of this is going on around him.

Little Thunder: Yes, that's neat. Again, acrylic on--

Pratt: Acrylic. I did this painting (Referring to another painting) because I was with some people and they were talking about how flat and ugly Oklahoma was. I said, "That's really not true. The Creator made this country, and we've got mountains, and we've got flat plains." So I thought, "I'm going to do a painting of this Indian that's out riding on that flat country." He's riding up there by himself, and he gets off his horse and stops to look at how beautiful that flat rolling hills are in Oklahoma. That's what he's doing. He's stopped, and he's admiring the handiwork of the Creator.

That's why I did this painting, because the guys were talking about how ugly Oklahoma was, being flat. I said, "That's beautiful country." When I walk through Cheyenne, Oklahoma, and up in that way, I love that rolling hills up there. Why people think that's ugly, I'll never know, but that's why I did this one. This guy just got off his horse and stopped and was amazed at the beauty of 83:00the land.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you so much for this time, Harvey.

Pratt: Oh, thank you for coming. I didn't think I'd talk very much. (Laughter)

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