Oral history interview with Kelly Haney

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is December 11, 2011, and I'm interviewing Kelly Haney at his home in Norman, Oklahoma. Kelly, you've had an amazing career as a politician on the state and tribal level. You're a businessman, but most people know you as an artist, and they continue to prize your artwork which now includes many sculptures as well as paintings. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Haney: Thank you very much.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Haney: I was born at home in Seminole County, northwest of the city of Seminole, near a little place called Turkey Creek, November 12, 1940.

Little Thunder: Any brothers or sisters?

Haney: I have two brothers and two sisters. Two of them are now deceased, one brother and one sister, so I still have one brother and one sister.

Little Thunder: How about your earliest memories of doing art?

Haney: Well, I have always done art. First of all, I acknowledge that what I have is God-given. I didn't choose to have this art ability. I just do. If I can think it in my head, I've got all these little messages going down to my fingertips to create what's in my mind. It sounds simplistic, but for me and many artists who do many kinds of art, whether it's writing or visual arts or even dance, I think they visualize what they have in the mind first, and then interpret in the form that they choose.

Little Thunder: How about your folks? What did they do for a living?

Haney: Oh, many things. (Laughs). My father in my early years was in World War II. When he came home, he started farming. It was at that time and period in our 2:00history when the government was trying to make farmers out of Indians. He was a good farmer, but one year things didn't turn out, and we left the farm and went to town. Eventually, he became a minister of the United Methodist Church. It was a Methodist church at the time, the Indian Missionary Conference. He was there for some thirty-five, forty years as a minister. In the meanwhile, he was a great storyteller. He was well known for that. He was a flute maker and a jeweler among other things, so the fact that I have this art ability, it's almost hereditary. It's like I remember my grandfather and grandmother doing arts and so forth.

He became a minister. For many years he served in the ministry. While he wasn't seminary-trained, he was very bright. He was an avid reader. After having gone to school, I had planned to go into the ministry. I had a lot of background studies in the ministry and theology. Knowing that and knowing what he believed and thought, it's amazing that he understood as well as he did about the Bible and about the message that comes from the Bible. He was very good at that.

He also, in his later life, became an instructor at Bacone College in the language department for the Muscogee language. He wrote some of the curriculum. He made his flutes. He played at the Tulsa Philharmonic, and he had also 4:00performed in Kennedy Center in Washington DC. He did some bit pieces in movies and so forth. He just was a handsome man with long white hair, and he'd fit right in.

He had a third-grade education. That really tells me and others about the way life is. Because you don't have the opportunity to get a formal education doesn't mean you're not smart. He had the ability to learn and know and to dream and visualize what he could do. He did as much as he could with the skills he had, probably much more than most people today.

My mother had an eighth grade education. From Mother, I had two things. One, my dad understood and talked about our history and about the ceremony grounds and so forth, but Mother lived it. She was there, she lived it, and she knew the importance of our culture. From my mother, I learned the value of work. I think 5:00that's probably a great thing because you cannot get along and succeed in life unless you know how to work. I have that ability. I can't slow down today because I just keep working. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So when you were in primary and secondary school--

Haney: Let me go back just a second and finish with my mother. My mother, she had never had to work because during the time she was growing up, oil was plentiful in Seminole County, and her father, my grandfather, had some oil on his property. It produced a lot of revenue for them, and they took care of other families then in those times when it was needed. She grew up rather roughly, but 6:00after he was deceased and the oil went away and she married my dad, she had to learn how to work, and she did. She went to work at odd jobs, and eventually she became a nurse's aide. She was at St. Francis Hospital in Tulsa for many, many years. She just loved the place, loved her work.

Unbeknownst to us, she was in her sixties, and she went and got her GED. To me, that means she did place a value, a high value, on education, the fact that at that age she was willing to go back and never told anybody. She just worked it out. She was kind of funny in the sense that she would prefer to speak our 7:00language, and she would carry on with other people like she didn't know English. Well, she could work a crossword puzzle, and I can't. (Laughter) She was pretty slick, I'd say. (Laughs) She was a bright, bright lady. The question always does come up, when did I first start art, and she's obviously the one who knows. I asked her one day, and she said, "Kelly, when you were two years old, you were able to sit down and draw what you saw." So, like I say, it's just a natural gift.

We did a lot of community fishing in the rivers and big sand basins, and I used to carve [in the sand beaches]. Living in the country, we all had knives because that's what you used as one of your tools. I learned how to make tool items, and I was six years old when I made my first sculpture. So the question, "When did 8:00you start sculpting?" I was six years old. That's what, sixty-five years ago? (Laughter)

Our home was on a dirt road at the time. It was red mud. My sister would make pies. I got to pushing around and found out, "Hey, I can make things." I made the head of Abraham Lincoln. It was about this tall. (Gestures) It had a hat and tie. I have no idea today why I selected that person, but I did. My mother, she went and bought me little paints, cheap paints and brushes, and I remember painting it. She was my biggest supporter in terms of helping me to develop my skill. We didn't have much, but whatever she could afford in the way of drawing and art supplies, she would make sure that I got something to work with. She 9:00probably got tired of me drawing on her walls. (Laughter) So that's kind of her history, just a summary.

Little Thunder: Did you have any art classes in school, or not too much?

Haney: Well, in the rural areas, you just don't have art. A bunch of them don't have art today, unfortunately. But we moved to Shawnee. Dad was trying to find work, and Mom was, too, so I went to school at Shawnee at Washington School. Then somehow by fifth grade, I had gone to Harrison School in Shawnee Public Schools. They had a formal art class. I started taking formal art classes, and I began to understand the principles of art, which the teacher took time to do with me.

One of the amazing things about that period, though, I looked around and saw a print of Drawbridge by Van Gogh, Mona Lisa, Whistler's Mother, and Blue Boy by Gainsborough, all these different prints around the room. I have had in my lifetime the opportunity to see the originals of all of those images. Of course, I was seeking them out when I'd go.

It was quite an experience, and she was very helpful to me. I found that I had that little niche that people enjoyed, and I enjoyed doing it. It was at that time I started selling drawings. The kids would want me to draw something, so if they had a quarter, I'd draw whatever they wanted me to. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That was your first sale.

Haney: Yes, that was my first sale, I believe. Actually, it was younger than that. I had my uncle who came and watched me. He was an artist, himself. He came down and saw my work, and he'd give me fifty cents for something. It was just 11:00his way of encouraging me, I think. So, yes, I've been selling art for a long time.

Little Thunder: In high school, were you still selling, and people getting you to do posters or--

Haney: I didn't in school, and I went to junior high in Shawnee, and they continued to have a formal art class. The teacher, Bill Malone, is still living and is one of my great friends. He took a special interest in me, as well. I was able to utilize that training in school to develop my skill. I moved to the high school, and they had what you call trade art, which meant that I could take art three hours a day in the afternoon. I'd take all my regular courses, but I could take art, and I took the art. I think that was probably the beginning of my more formal understanding of what art principles and concepts were, so that was very helpful.

I moved back to Seminole. In that rural area they no longer had art, but I kept it up. I would play basketball, ran track, and played baseball, go to school. At night, I would go into my room, and I would draw and paint and just self-study.

Little Thunder: You went on to Bacone for a year. Was it a year or two?

Haney: I did. I went two years. I graduated with their program there at Bacone College. I studied art under Dr. Dick West, who was a very prominent artist, one of the great leaders of the Indian art movement in history. He is a wonderful man, funny person, great artist. I was able to learn many things under his instructions.

I might say, too, it was at that time when I started mostly doing Indian art. I 13:00really didn't do much Indian art, if any, until I went to Bacone College and I began to understand Indian history a little bit and the importance of how you do it, at least his style of art. [My] styles have changed over the years, but it was important for me at that time to know what he had to teach me.

Little Thunder: So did you try to do a little bit of the so-called flat style?

Haney: I did. I'm very good at it, quite frankly. It was simple and easy to do, but mostly because--the hardest part for me is drawing. Today, it's hard. It takes a while to finally get exactly what I want. Once I do that, the rest is easy, at least for me. Painting, sculpting, the rest just comes easy. I've just got to make the form. I'm really cautious when I'm doing realism to make sure 14:00that the anatomy is correct. I'm working on a horse right now, and I've got to know every bone structure, every muscle structure of a horse. I have one special one. I take hundreds of pictures of every little part of that horse. I spend a lot of time in research.

That's different than the early times of Indian art. At the time I was studying art at Bacone, Indian art was considered flat with lines [defining the objects or persons]. It's what I call a coloring book concept. That was easy for me to conquer. Just the drawing part was difficult. Once I did that, I was very successful in winning many competitions.

Little Thunder: You entered the Philbrook Annual.

Haney: I entered and won at the Philbrook [Museum]. I had entered many competitions, Five Civilized Tribes [Museum]. I have a nice collection of memories of awards that I've won over the years using that style. That was not 15:00who I was. That's not my style, but that's what Indian art was considered. I partially made a living out of it. It helped me get through school, so that's what I did.

Later on, I started working with my own style. That came after the art instructions at the University of Arizona at Tucson. At that time, I had received a scholarship, the Rockefeller Foundation Scholarship. There were nineteen Indian artists across the country selected to go to that school for training. They took care of all of our expenses, planes, room, food. They just took care of everything.

I took several classes. One was in jewelry making. I can't hardly believe it today, but they had slabs and slabs of silver and turquoise and just anything and everything we needed to learn. I took some oil painting classes, which I had 16:00already, but I began to develop my skill there.

Two things happened that I recall about that. One of my instructors in the jewelry business was Charles Loloma. Charles was one of the great jewelers who started this whole movement of contemporary Indian jewelry. I say he started it. There may have been others, but he's the one I remember who was doing that, and that was great. He said, "You know, you don't have to do it the old way. You're an artist. You're an individual. You're an Indian. You can do anything you want to because that's who you are." That was important.

The other instructor was Fritz Scholder, who was considered one of the premier abstract painters of Indian subjects in the world. He was a young man at the 17:00time, but he was the instructor there. My art went beyond my own understanding of what I liked--

Little Thunder: Out of realism into--

Haney: --what I had learned about traditional, yes, from flat two-dimensional to realism. Then I began to understand this concept of contemporary abstract art. I have done abstract art, and I enjoy doing it. I just don't have the time. My whole life, basically, is based on time management because of my background and what I do.

Little Thunder: After your training at the university in Arizona, did you step into art as a professional, full-time, or did you do some other things?

Haney: Well, I came back to Oklahoma City University and pursued my original goals. That was to develop my art skills, but also for the ministry. I have a lot of background in the schools of theology and so forth. I had that. All of that is important because I paint what I think about life. My life can be considered complicated, but for me it's not. It's just the way I am and who I am. I did learn at OCU. They allowed me at that point to just do what I wanted to do.

I did a mixture of sometimes doing traditional flat paintings, and other times I'd do abstracts. I kind of ran the range. I guess I was looking for my own style. That was important, and I learned a lot. OCU has been a great inspiration 19:00to me over the years. I was on the board of trustees for OCU for a number of years and got an honorary doctorate from OCU in law of all things. Of course, I was in the legislature twenty-two years. That's obvious that I know a little bit about it. (Laughter)

When I was still at OCU, I went to work for J. C. Penney Company in downtown Oklahoma City. That was in 1962, late '62. I went in to work two weeks to help them with Christmas decorations. In the meanwhile, the manager quits, and the assistant manager comes in, and for the first time I heard, "Mr. Haney, would you like to be a display manager?" I didn't hesitate. I said, "Yes, sir." I had no idea what I was doing. You just go.

So for several years I worked in that industry in display management, and it gave me a better understanding about how to work with people, understanding that I grew up in a very traditional Indian environment. The language that was spoken was our Native language. I was with my aunts, uncles, grandparents, and other people in the community who were Native people. Those who grew up during that period in the way I did will understand that it was a little difficult to talk to non-Indians.

I was still in that transition phase whenever they gave me this job, and I learned that people, no matter who they are, they're willing to help me do my job. They didn't care that I was Indian. They just wanted to make sure that I did my job right because if I did my job right, they got to sell more things. So it all worked out really good. I learned a lot from that company. The young man who hired me who was assistant manager at the time went on to transfer to New 21:00York City. He eventually became the chair of the J. C. Penney Board worldwide. We ran into each other years later, he being who he was and me being a state senator, and we had the best time. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Pretty amazing. Your background in finance--had you taken a few finance classes at OCU?

Haney: I didn't. Most of mine was really centered around liberal education and religion. I was working, not necessarily in art but in community development at the time. I was looking for another job opportunity, and I was called by this person who became a friend of mine. I had interviewed with him earlier. He called and said, "Mr. Haney, we'd like for you to apply for this training that is going to take place in Philadelphia." I said, "Well, for what purpose?" It 22:00was for an economic developer. I said, "What the hell is an economic developer?" I didn't know. (Laughter) He told me, "It's to help create businesses in inner cities because of the current situation and to develop those skills." They paid a nice stipend. They paid for everything. I had a family, too, though, so I had to consider that.

Little Thunder: Was this in the mid-'70s?

Haney: I'm trying to remember. Late '60s? I think it was the late '60s. I went to school in Philadelphia at the Progress Management Institute. The instructors there came from Temple University in their Business Department and the Wharton School of Business and Finance. Instructors would come and instruct us in special programs designed specifically for these men and women that are training 23:00to go back in different cities across the country.

Everyone had a degree in business. (Laughter) Some had master's degrees. I came out at the top of the class. I've never worked as hard as I did, but it came easy. Business concepts and so forth, it's something that really comes to me as easy as art does. I haven't had enough time to work at it as I would like to have. As you know, becoming Chairman of Appropriations, I have certainly had an opportunity to deal with issues of finance and budgets and so forth.

Little Thunder: So you worked for J. C. Penney, and you took that training in Philadelphia. You continued, I guess, doing your artwork?

Haney: I've always done my artwork, since two years old. For me, art is like breathing. I just do it. It's like I have no choice. You get up and you breathe. 24:00I get up, and I've got to do some sort of art, at least think a concept through.

Little Thunder: Did you put your work in any Oklahoma galleries to start with?

Haney: I did. I had it in several galleries. Five Civilized Tribes Museum in Muskogee probably has the largest collections of my early originals, then Gilcrease and other galleries across the state. Then I had an opportunity to exhibit in California. I was an early exhibitor in Santa Fe, and I was a prize winner in painting at that time.

Little Thunder: At Indian Market in Santa Fe?

Haney: Indian Market. Then when I became a legislator, everything stopped. My art didn't stop. It really reduced the amount of time I could spend with it, so I just did it locally. My market has always been good locally. Of course, I've developed that.

Little Thunder: When you entered in Santa Fe, you had found your voice with this 25:00more realistic style that we know you for.

Haney: Right, right, right. It was realism. People there seemed to like it. Of course, at Santa Fe there's those who do realism, and people really love what they do because they do a good job. Then there's more contemporary, sometimes abstract, work coming out of Santa Fe now, so it fits a whole broad category.

Little Thunder: When you got into politics, what were the advantages or disadvantages of coming in as an artist?

Haney: Oh, the ability to imagine, to develop concepts and to work through them. In creating a piece of legislation, for instance, I promoted to start the 26:00alternative education programs in Oklahoma. The reason is that I fit every category of a school dropout. I figured if I can make it, we need to help these kids to make it. They're not dumb. They just learn different. That's what I learned about that whole process.

My next job was to get these legislation passed and start putting large amounts of monies into that program throughout the state. Now it's kind of like a regular program in the state of Oklahoma. Understanding this about public service: When I did that, I understood at that time that those students, thousands and thousands of students, will never know my name, will never know my face, but the fact that I helped is important to me. That's probably from my ministerial perspective and background. For me, public service, elected office was my ministry. That's how I looked at it.

Little Thunder: That's such an important program. When you first began to get into prints, you mentioned that Blackbear Bosin and Woody Crumbo were instrumental in guiding you. What, first of all, made you decide it's time to start doing prints?

Haney: Well, I had an office in Oklahoma City [and] ran a company out of Philadelphia in business development. We did business packaging and finance and feasibility studies, etcetera, etcetera, so I began to get hold of an idea that I wanted to go into business for myself. I always did want to, so that wasn't a big surprise, but I needed a business plan. It took me two years to develop a business plan that I was comfortable with, that I could make a decent living for my family, number one. Being an artist was hard to do, and it's hard today to 28:00do. I may be a better businessman than I am an artist, quite frankly. I just put a lot of time and effort into marketing and sales.

Having said that, that's kind of where I went with it. I took my experience and background as a developer and applied it to the development of an art business. It'd have to be an art gallery, and I'm looking for many concepts to help me through this process and how to maximize my income and so forth. Ran into Woody Crumbo. I have to tell you, I thought he was deceased. (Laughter) He walked into my office one day and knocked on the door and said, "I'm Woody Crumbo." I said, "You can't be. You're dead." (Laughter) We became great friends afterwards.

His art was the first piece of Indian art that I'd ever seen. It was at my aunt's house. I was just a young, young boy. It was one of those little spirit 29:00horses, they called them. It was pinned onto the wall. That was the first one, so it went back a long way. I'd seen his works in books and so forth. We became great friends, but he said something to me that was important at that point in terms of my development of a business concept. He said, "Kelly, I can have three to five art shows on a weekend." "Oh, yes?" He says, "Yes, I sell prints." You just send prints to different places, and at the time you didn't have to be there. Today, they want you to be there, so I don't do that much anymore, but that sounded right. I was able to do three shows on a weekend across the country.

Little Thunder: He was a good businessman, too, wasn't he? (Laughs)

Haney: He was a good businessman. He understood that concept. He was really important to me in the development of that concept of the prints. That's really where it came from. The other one who also was important was Blackbear Bosin. 30:00Blackbear Bosin had both a prints business, but he also had a gallery.

Little Thunder: Was it in Tulsa?

Haney: It was in Wichita. I would go up to his gallery to look at it and visit with him about how to run an art gallery and the business part of a gallery. So really it was me putting that gallery concept together with Woody Crumbo's concept of prints, merging them together and making a program. I was very successful at it in the early years. I had sometimes as much as a hundred galleries ordering prints from me from all over the world.

I eventually got out of it. I don't know why, but when I did get into the legislature in 1980, I remember losing a hundred thousand dollars of income my first year. Every year, I continued to lose, but I would never trade my 31:00experience in the legislature for anything. It was a great experience. It was one of the things that I liked to do, and that's to help people. I had great love for that. It did take a toll on my income, and it did for a long, long time. I'm just now able to make a decent living. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You had this amazing career in the legislature. You even had a run for governor, which was real exciting, the first Native candidate running for governor. What was the learning experience in that?

Haney: Well, first of all, I'm glad I did it. I'm the only full-blood Indian that's ever served in the legislature. I rose to be the chairman of the most powerful committee in state government. I served on the Executive Council for 32:00the National Council of State Legislators. I was only the second Oklahoman to ever do that.

Had a lot of good experiences as an Indian person. After twenty-two years in the legislature, much of that in appropriations, the head of it, I walked away with my integrity intact. That was really important to me because had I been doing it for myself, perhaps I might have done some of those goofy things people do. I was also the image of a nation, of an Indian nation. In my mind, I had to keep myself above board at everything I did because I didn't want to embarrass our people because if I did, then we'd be shoved back a little bit. So I was able to do that, and I think I accomplished that.

Quite frankly, I just got tired of being in the legislature at that position 33:00that I was in. That's a powerful position. I'd done it for years and years. By this time, I knew what was going to happen every year, got to work through unique problems every year. I loved it, but I thought it was time to move on. In my opinion, I was probably, and still believe, that I was the best qualified candidate for governor at the time. Had more experience than all of the candidates put together. Understood budgets better than any candidate that was running because I had been the head of it. I helped create the school finance act that funds schools throughout the state of Oklahoma. I'd done all of these things, and I just thought it was time.

But there's something else that I'm a little cautious about how I say it. There is still that issue of Indianness. In Oklahoma, there is still that issue of color. I don't care what they say. There still is because I faced it when I was in legislature. When I go somewhere wearing jeans, I'm treated "like an Indian." 34:00If I have my suit on, they think I might be somebody. I know that exists in Oklahoma today.

One of my early experiences of being very, very young, in the courthouse in Wewoka and seeing the signs going over to restroom. One said "whites only," and the other says "coloreds only." I wasn't white, and I wasn't colored like they're talking about. I don't remember what I did. I've gone through that experience. I've gone through the experience of different states refusing to let me into motels, refusing to let me into restaurants. The irony of it all is I had a military uniform on.

You never forget those, and I'm glad I went through that experience because it taught me and showed me what other people of color have gone through and continue to go through. That really gave me a greater insight. Probably helped me more in later years, in retrospect, than I knew, so that was important.

Even today, society, while it's not as open as it is to most people of color, there still is that underlying feeling toward Native people and people of color. I'll be quick to say it goes the other way, too. Native people can have damaging thoughts about other people, really for no reason, people who did nothing to them, so this is kind of a human behavior and thought process. Somehow, we've got to get past it. That's one of the things I do when I work around the world. It helps me to bridge that gap a little bit. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Towards the end of your service in the legislature, you did a sculpture for the Capitol dome.

Haney: Yes, Governor [Frank] Keating had taken the initiative to build a dome 36:00under great duress and conflict, but I'm glad he did. It now looks like a capitol. I mean, it's a great building. In fact, I will say to him, "Governor Keating, I appreciate your building that $25 million pedestal for my sculpture." (Laughter)

It was at that time when we were getting ready to build the dome. In the original design of the dome, there is a sculpture that was designed for it. The art committees got together, and they started thinking about the kind of art they would like to have on top. Much more goes into decision making than most people know. They were building the Land Run sculptures in downtown Bricktown, Oklahoma City. The concept, "Well, we'll need something to balance it. We need an Indian. Allan Houser's sculpture is in the front, but it's a woman, so we 37:00need to have an Indian man." That's how it all started. They wanted something "generic." (Laughter)

That kind of threw me a little bit, but I think ultimately they were correct. Because of the thirty-nine federally-recognized tribes in Oklahoma, you can't just have one up there, so I'll give it that. There were over twenty artists who submitted portfolios. I was one of six. We were given thirty days to come out with a model. The day before I left for Paris is when I got my notice that I was one of those selected.

We have some offices in Europe that I kind of kept watch over. I went there, went to Belgium, went on to Taiwan and Japan, and when I got home, I had two 38:00weeks left. I'm thinking, "Oh, I'll never get this done! I'll never get this done." I almost didn't submit anything, but my mind keeps turning and working. First thing I do is look for a composition. It's not the drawing. It's the composition. That's the way it worked, and that pretty much established what they wanted.

I was driving from Seminole to the Capitol, going by Tinker Air Force Base, and this thought came into my mind. It was just like a (snaps). I reached over and got an envelope and a little pen, and it took less than five seconds. I just sketched what I wanted so I don't lose the concept. After that, two weeks later, I had a sculpture ready for them.

Before that time, I did submit a letter to the Ethics Committee to see whether or not I could even compete in that competition. The letter they sent back to me basically said that since the funds were private funds, I could, so I felt good about that. The second thing I'm happy about is that the six artists, with our art, we had to take our names off the clay or the wax piece so no one knew exactly who did what. It's called a blind competition. That's where I won the competition. It was unanimous. I was real pleased with that.

I eventually, though, gifted them my work at no cost. I just felt like it was an honor to do it on behalf of me and my family. As you know, in our Indian way, 40:00it's a great honor just to give, and I thought, "Well, there's no greater honor than this one. We'll just give it to the State of Oklahoma." Of course, my brother would always say to me was, "Well, you shouldn't give away my share!" (Laughter) But that's how it came to be. I did a sculpture about nineteen, twenty inches tall in clay, and we converted it into twenty-two [feet] for the sculpture.

Little Thunder: Yes, that's a huge undertaking. How did--

Haney: Well, I don't have to know everything, see. (Laughter). In almost any profession you're in, it could be in production, you still need other people's help. I don't assume in the kind of work that I do today that I have to do all that. I never believed I needed to stretch canvas to be a good artist. Some people thought you did. Some people thought you ought to make your own paint. 41:00I'm thinking, "I don't see anything creative about either one of those." (Laughter) The foundry does what it does. I do what I do, and it's just a complement of the two. My job is to make sure they do it right, and I keep on top of that.

Little Thunder: So you did come in a couple of times during the process?

Haney: I do. In the process, I'll come in to clean it up, make sure all the lines are clean, and it's to my standards. That's what I do.

Little Thunder: I think you also donated a sculpture to Seminole College, or was that one that they purchased?

Haney: Let's see. I think they purchased that one. It's a replica of The Guardian. After The Guardian, I made seven replicas. I have one left, and I think it's going to go to the new Army Reserve building in Broken Arrow. I'm 42:00looking forward to that.

Little Thunder: You did a bronze sculpture. You had a commission from Chickasaw Nation?

Haney: I did. They wanted one of a Chickasaw warrior, and I did a lot of research. One of my paintings that I did eventually became a sculpture. I researched over twenty years, and when I was ready, I was going to get it. That one took a lot of concentrated, focused research because I was trying to capture a Chickasaw warrior prior to the coming of the European. So, going back in research, looking up old lithographs, and reading to see what the clothing was like, that was really important to me. I want to get back to that, about how I started research at a very young age. It's important for who I am.

That's what I did. There are some unique things about that sculpture that I 43:00really like. One is they wore long earrings, kind of different than I'd ever seen. Looked like a golf tee coming through the ear on both sides, the men did. I thought that's unique to them, and their heritage was unique. One of the things I put on the sculpture was the shield. They made shields like most tribes, using leather and so forth, but they also used alligator hide. You can understand it's hard. There's no arrow going to come through that.

The other one they used was tree barks. Didn't think about that. If you shoot a bow, it's not going to go very far into the wood. It just does that and, boing! So Chickasaw Warrior, the shield is made out of wood bark, so to speak. It was fun doing all that research and seeing what they did at that time, to do what 44:00they did.

Little Thunder: You've done combinations of Plains images and also Seminole and Creek images, as well. Research is important to you.

Haney: Really important to me. Let me explain about the research. I was in the tenth grade, and my English teacher knew that I read my books. When they gave oral reports, I'd get up, and I'd have a great time. I could tell stories [like] my father [and] my grandfather, so I told stories about the books, and they loved it. But when it came time to write, she knew I had great difficulty in writing. She came to me and said, "Enoch, I know you're reading your book. I want you to do me three drawings for every book you read." That was a challenge. "Wow!" I thought, "This will be easy."

Well, it wasn't, because in order to do the Ides of March, I had to study clothing, architecture, topography. I had to study several books to get that one drawing. That's the same process that I use today. I go through and spend a lot of time researching to make sure that, to the best of my ability, I have it correct. That's what I do.

I did one of a Sioux warrior once. It's called I Will Choose My Time. I didn't do it for anyone. It was for myself. When I finally finished months later, the first thing I did, I had my salesperson take it up north, one of the Dakotas, for an art show. When they got there, the old men looked at it and they thought 46:00a Sioux must have painted that because they said everything was right. The colors were right and so forth, so on. That really made me happy, more than a judge or award could ever do, even a sale, just to know that they felt like I had done something that was correct. So that was important.

Research is important to me. Research started with my English teacher understanding that I had a special need, that I could finish the work but I had to do it differently. Years later, I was on, I think it was the Johnny Carson Show or something like that. We were talking about art in my earlier days of painting, and by this time, she had moved to another state. Virginia, her name was Virginia, Virginia Brown. She called me to let me know that she'd saw that show. "I probably wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for you."

Little Thunder: Even though you got tired of state politics, you were a tribal 47:00councilman for Seminole Nation, and then you ran for Chief. How did that enrich your art experience?

Haney: Oh, everything I do affects my art experience because basically, almost any one of my works that you see, with the exception of something like Chickasaw Warrior, which is just capturing a time and period of history, all the works that I do primarily have one message. Once you get past all the flowery words and art critics, it's usually one message, very simple. That's what I do. The Chickasaw Warrior was kind of an exception, but the rest of the time it's pretty straight forward. If you just look for a central message, you get to know [my] art.

Little Thunder: It was an opportunity, of course, to do some things in your tribe.

Haney: Truthfully, I didn't want to do it. It wasn't what I wanted to do. At that time, the tribe was going through some very difficult times politically, organizational-wise, bad press almost daily coming out of there. What really finally got to me was a lot of the young Seminoles. Seminoles in general said, "I'm ashamed to be Seminole" because of the behavior of some, not all, but some of the council people. There was friction between the Chief and so forth. No one could help them because the problem was that they had no court of jurisdiction that they could go to to solve their problem. Everything was done internal. The CFR [Courts of Federal Regulations] court, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, they couldn't interfere, couldn't go to federal court, couldn't give it to state court.

The only court they had was the Council. The council of anybody, a legislative body, is a political body. You line up on sides, and whoever's got the most on their side gets to win. It has nothing to do with justice. It's no different. The state legislature tried to make a decision by saying, "It's too political," and that's what it was. They couldn't get past that.

I took a long time to think about it. I prayed about it for months, I mean, seriously, just thinking, "Gee, I don't want to do this, God." I meant to get out of politics, but eventually I guess I convinced myself that I was the only one that had the experience to pull them out of this problem. So we did. I won pretty easy. I had five opponents, I think four or five opponents, and I won 50:00with 65 percent of the vote. That comes with experience, though. I campaigned so many years, I knew how to do this. So I did that.

There were several problems. One, when I walked into office, they didn't have any credit. Most of the people they did business with were friends of mine that I had helped when I was state senator. They said, "Senator, I will help you," so we got it going again. Then I went through the books, and I found they had money to pay. They just weren't paying. I have no idea why. I said, "You're going to pay your bills. Everybody pays their bills." That's one of the things I had to go through for a long time, trying to get that straight.

The second thing is how you look at yourself is important. Where the tribe should be, I looked at it as a profession, something honorable to do, just like 51:00if you're working for the state or federal government, how you dress, how you behave, how you talk. The first day I show up there, there's a young man. He's got jeans on and writings all over his old t-shirt, smoking. Well, I hired a gentleman that was a great friend of mine who was head of personnel for the Army for a long time, Colonel Leon Lusty. I said, "Colonel, we need to get this together." So the first day, he went up and got the staff together. "I see you come in jeans and a t-shirt tomorrow, don't come because you're out of a job." Second day, I came to work, and he's sitting at the door. He looked up at me and says, "Chief, you're seven minutes late." "Okay, won't do that again, Colonel." (Laughter) It took that to say, "You're professionals. Dress like a professional. Behave like a professional."

The complaint was that they were abusive on the phone. We had to correct that. State employees have been bad about that. I'm aware of that. It's just not an 52:00Indian problem. It's working with people and making them feel good about their job and let them know what their job is. Of course, we ended up with a pretty professional staff. I always wore a suit because I was taught to wear a suit in the legislature. As soon as I'd leave, I'd put my jeans back on. While I'm working, I'm representing the tribe.

One of the more serious problems, the one thing I wanted to do if nothing else besides getting the finances together was to create a tribal court. For the lifetime of the Seminole tribe, they have not had a tribal court. The Chickasaws, Choctaws, Cherokees, Creeks, they've all had tribal courts from the beginning of the last century. We have not. It's always been that Council.

It was a battle to get it passed because they had to spend a lot of money and 53:00time and effort to get out there and convince people it's the right thing to do. There were those who didn't want to change and who was fighting against it, but we changed it. I think of all the things I did for the tribe, that was probably the biggest single thing I did for them that could help them to become a government and to be a responsible government.

They had that, but we did other things. I set up a land fund to purchase lands for the Seminole. We have very small land, and I'm pretty good at selecting real estate properties. We went and bought properties in and around Seminole. Bought a little office plaza. Whenever I had monies coming in for a grant, I said, "We're not going to lease. We'll go buy it, and we'll rent from ourselves," and that's what I did. We always found good properties, so we expanded the land base for the Seminoles, as well, while we were doing that.

The one that I worked on when I was at the state level, among other things, is 54:00the one for domestic violence. Established and purchased land out of the area, got them a nice little place and funded a domestic violence program with a home. To my knowledge, that's underway right now. So there were several things we did that I think made a difference, but I was so tired. (Laughter) I really was.

Little Thunder: Ready to get back to your art. (Laughter) You've done a lot of exhibiting overseas. Your showing overseas goes back many years.

Haney: The first art show I had in another country was in Vienna, Austria. I was just a young kid, didn't know what I was doing.

Little Thunder: Your first time?

Haney: Yes, had a show there. I think I was the only Native there, but they had 55:00a reception for us at a palace. The heads of states and the royalty from that part of the world, prince, princesses, dukes, they were there. That was the first in my life, the only time in my life I've been uncomfortable because for a little old Seminole boy from Seminole, Oklahoma, that's pretty powerful. You only read about this in books.

What I remember about that experience is not the art and so forth. This young lady, beautiful young lady, was a princess somebody. Emerald green dress on, jewels knocked your eyes out, and she said, "Mr. Haney, where are you from?" Knowing that she didn't know where Oklahoma was, probably, I said, "Well, I'm from a place called Turkey Creek, Oklahoma. Its ten miles north of a place called Seminole, Oklahoma, and Seminole's in Oklahoma, which is in the middle of the country."

What that did, it affirmed to me who I am. It says, "Yes, I'm from somewhere, 56:00and that's where I'm from." It's important for me, not just geographically where I'm at but, ultimately, I come from an Indian family and Indian culture in this area, right here. So, for me, that really confirmed who you are. Know who you are. It's important for me.

Little Thunder: What was one of the most exciting shows you had overseas?

Haney: Oh, I think probably the one I did that was financially successful, at least, was in Singapore. They had arranged to have a big show there, and a holding company was sponsoring me. They owned the newspaper, television, magazine, everything in Singapore. They asked if I would come over, and I did, had an art show.

Weeks before I arrived, I sent them all kinds of photos. They were asking about 57:00my picture, photos of my artwork, and they started putting those on everything, the whole system. By the time I get to Singapore, I'm walking down streets and in buildings, and people would say, "Oh, you're the red Indian." That's what they referred to us as: red Indians. "Uh, yes?" (Laughter) But that was a highly successful show, and it was one of my entries into other cultures. Since that time, in the legislature I have had the opportunity to establish commerce offices in Singapore and work with people there to have a better understanding. That was great. That was one of my better ones.

Little Thunder: You've been to China quite a bit.

Haney: I have. Thirty years. I'm not exactly sure what started--I do. The first 58:00trip I made (I don't know what year it was) was on behalf of David Boren at OU to go explore the possibilities of getting students to OU. That was my assignment, and so I went. The fact that I was a senator elevated me to the status of politician, so it was the government of China who took care of me and made sure everything went right and so forth and so on. That was a good experience. From then, I've been there many times. More recently, it's a different purpose.

I have a new business. I'm seventy-one, but I have to find something to do. I have a partner. He and I have a business development company, and what we do, we find Oklahoma companies, or even across the country, who want financing for 59:00large projects. In fact, we have many investors in China today that go all around the world and buy properties. Real estate, oil and gas, mining, you name it, wherever they can make money, they're out there.

I have a real connection with Chinese people. I just have this ability to work and understand and get to know people, and so I've got some good contacts there. I have some clients who are looking at some business possibilities. I will say this. I don't take anything less than $50 million projects because it's not worth my time. I'm retired. If I'm going to work, I need to make a little something out of it, you know, so that's what I do.

Little Thunder: Do you feel a connection with the Chinese art, too?

Haney: Not necessarily. I collect Chinese art and every time I go to China, they always introduce me to the top artists in China, which is always fun. I've 60:00gotten work from them, and usually they give me something. I'll sit down at their studio and do a little painting for them or something. It's fun.

Little Thunder: In terms of your media and techniques, starting with painting, has acrylic pretty much been your preferred medium?

Haney: It is. It may not even be my preferred, aesthetically. It's preferred because oil painting takes so long to dry. I've had the experience of starting an oil painting with this emotional feel for it. It took so long, by the time I got to the other end, it wasn't that same feel.

With acrylic, it's almost as fast as watercolors. Once I start with acrylic, I almost go through it, just one sweep. You can maintain that momentum that you 61:00have, whatever those emotions are, that creativity, whatever you want to call it, is just going through there and kind of moves like this. The other one is slow. I wish it was a faster medium. I'd probably use oils.

Little Thunder: You've done quite a few monoprints, I guess?

Haney: I've done monoprints, lithographs, whatever, as time permits. I wish I had more time to do it. As you've already pointed out, I have business interests. I have political involvement. I taught a couple of years at OCU in the area of business and marketing. I was on their board for a decade. I'm still active, not today. I'm off of most things, but the Cultural Center in Oklahoma City was my creation in the beginning, and so I serve on that board. That's 62:00probably the only one I do. I have been invited to be on the board for the Creativity Conference of Asian countries. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Wow! That might be kind of fun.

Haney: Well, I've given it some thought.

Little Thunder: How do you think your painting style has changed over the years?

Haney: Just evolution. I think as your life changes, the way you look at life, it just changes with that. I'm always moving toward something that's comfortable for me. The only hard thing for me to do in art, and I've had three classes, is pottery. I cannot do pottery. (Laughter) I just give up on that, but the rest of it I seem to be able to do marginally well at it.

You have to understand about my life is that I've probably spent 10 percent of my life, if that much, doing art. If I could do 20 percent, at least logic tells 63:00me I could do twice as good, but I'll never be there. It's a combination of art good enough and exceptional marketing ability. Unfortunately, a lot of artists don't have that, the second part. Great artists can starve to death.

Little Thunder: I know you use live models in your paintings, and often family members. Why is it important to have a live model?

Haney: There's something about using a model that gives depth to what you're doing. I use a lot of photos, but then there is that flatness. If you look at something in three-dimensional, particularly with some of the kind of work I do, it gives it volume, gives it perspective that you miss if it's just a 64:00two-dimensional image that you're looking at.

Little Thunder: Of course, when you're working in sculpture, you're doing that three-dimensional thing. You work realistically. Is there any carryover from painting to sculpture at all?

Haney: Only in that I try to make sure my anatomy and things are correct. I'm sure it works differently with other people. For me, sculpting is a better medium now. Having said that, the school I went to in Philadelphia, much of it focused on planning, so when I was twenty-nine years old, I planned the rest of my life out.

At thirty-five, I was going to be in tribal government. I was. At forty, I was 65:00going to be in state politics. I was. I planned to be there ten years, go get my doctorate, teach at a university, and come back. Except when I got my ten years in the legislature, I'm pretty powerful, (Laughter) able to do many, many good things for people. I really enjoyed it, so I stayed. I never did go get my doctorate, but I have taught at the university. I guess that counts for something. The bottom line to all that is I decided when I was fifty-five I was going to start sculpting. I missed it by one year. I was fifty-six.

Little Thunder: That's when you produced your first series that you commercially marketed?

Haney: When I first did any of the large monumental stuff. I had done some along the way. I guess that's one way of saying I didn't paint anymore. I don't paint today. Just doing sculpting now because at my age you can only do so much with 66:00your life. I have to plan my life and time out. Time management is the biggest thing in my life. It's making sure that I'm able to accomplish some measure of success. As a general rule, on a daily basis I make a list of things I have to do. Sometimes I have as many as fifty things. Once I get them written down, I don't have to think about, "I need to do it." I look at my list, and I categorize them by importance, and I just start doing them without thinking. At the end of the time, at least at the end of the day, I know I did something.

Little Thunder: And it's not just sculpture. It's pretty monumental sculpture, for the most part.

Haney: It is. It is.

Little Thunder: You enjoy working in that scale?

Haney: I do because for me, for the art part, it makes me feel like I did 67:00accomplish something in my art, not as much as I could have, but perhaps life wasn't intended to be that way for me because I was involved in so many other things. I've had a blessed life. It's not always been rosy. It's kind of like running for governor. I'm glad I did, didn't like to get beat, but somebody had to win, and somebody had to lose. I don't always win. That's what people have to understand.

While I've been successful in many things, there's been times I just fell flat on my face. Being who I am and what I believe as a Native person, I get back up, dust myself off, and maybe have to go a different direction, but I'll get up and keep going. I've started over I don't know how many times. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I think you've hinted at what your creative process is from the time you get an idea, but can you take us through that?

Haney: Not real complicated, for one. Don't make it any more complicated than it is. For me, I have the complication of getting it done. As far as the process is concerned, once the image is in my mind and a composition has been formed, then I start piecing it together. For instance, I'm doing this horse and rider. Well, I've got to do the horse. I've got the horse. I spend a great deal of time studying anatomy, muscle structure, and I go see the horse all the time.

Little Thunder: Is it a horse that you have here on the property?

Haney: That's taken me awhile. I should finish that, I think, in ten to fifteen days. A rider goes on top of it, but that should be done within the same period. In thirty days I should have that ready. It will be enlarged to twelve feet tall. Once I get that part done, it goes to a company here in Norman, a digital 69:00company. They take an image of that sculpture, and they can make it any size I want. It comes back to me in Styrofoam, identical to the image they took. The foundry will build a quarter-inch of clay around it. While it's standing--like The Guardian, it was huge. It looked very heavy, but the fact is, it's cut into many pieces, and I can move them around because it's Styrofoam.

Once you've got it enlarged and you've got everything in place and it looks right, then they start chopping it up. The Guardian is made into fifty different pieces. That's for the purpose of being able to fit it into one of the vats that they have for the process. Once they do that and they cast it, then they weld it 70:00back together. Then it's a very crude looking bronze image, but that's when you put the patina on, which is a color glaze. Once they put the coloring, it looks like one piece. That's a simple way of putting it, but that's basically what happens. I usually stay along with the whole process, kind of keep an eye on it.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career, what do you think was kind of a fork-in-the-road moment when you could have gone one direction but you went a different one?

Haney: Can't say. I guess I've kind of done what I wanted to do along the way. There was no timing. It was just when the time was right to do something, I did it. I don't know what that fork in the road was.

Now, there was one fork in the road that--it does affect my life. You know, smoking cigarettes was a cultural thing with our Native people. We used tobacco all the time. My dad gave me permission to smoke when I was fourteen, so by the time I was like twenty or something, I was smoking two packs a day. Just back from the military and going to Bacone, and had a lot of beer in my room, and smoking a lot and playing a lot of cards. (Laughter)

One day, I was standing out on the campus of the college, and I looked, and my hands were just shaking like this. I thought, "Oh, God, I can't be an artist like this. I want to make something of myself. I can't be doing this." At that time and at that moment, I quit smoking and I quit drinking. There was no tapering off, no tapes or nothing. I just decided, "I'm not doing this no more," 72:00and I quit. I'm not even sure I thought about it too much. I just decided to quit. To me, that was--I guess it was some sort of miracle. Some people have such a hard time. I smoked a lot. Think two packs a day. That's a lot. That was a turning point right there. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What has been one of the low points of your career, do you think?

Haney: Oh, talking about life and career like this, it's when I lost my son. He was eighteen. The day before graduation, he got killed in a car wreck. That was devastating. I mean, I look back on that experience then, and that was the worst experience I've ever had in my life. Continues to be. I hope I never lose 73:00another child. I want to be gone before that happens.

When that happened, I was three weeks away from deciding if I would run for another term in the legislature. Out of self-preservation I decided to run to keep busy, and that's what I did. I just kept busy. Get up at six-thirty every morning. My friend picked me up and [would] bring me home at night every night. We campaigned the whole time. We had a lot of fun doing that, just me and my best friend. That was kind of what we did. That was probably a low point.

What happened is in oils I created a painting called Emptiness Has a Claim on Death. It was a powerful painting. Probably speaks more than anything I've ever done. It catches me personally, my emotion. It's a painting of a Seminole man, 74:00traditional clothing, evening. From here to here, it's transparent so you can see through the body because that's how you feel when you lose somebody that's so close to you. You feel emptiness.

At the same time, it's like the hole inside is concrete. It's a strange feeling, that emptiness. That's why I called it Emptiness Has a Claim on Death. That helped me to--that was my therapy to deal with that issue. That's when I also settled in. I'm painting my emotions in about everything I do. Not all, but most of what I do is really coming from that artist spirit, whatever that is, that comes out of an artist that really has something to say.

I might only do two to five things a year that really makes an impact. I may do several. I'm just trying to look around, but there's something will come 75:00through. Usually, it comes through when I'm doing a piece of work that I'm doing for myself.

Little Thunder: You have that freedom.

Haney: I have that freedom. I don't have to worry, "Will they like this? I wonder if they like this color versus this color?" I don't have to do that. Then, one of the things that came out, and life can change, anyway, in a lot of perspectives, but my son was married. He was in high school, and he was married. He had a job, took care of his family. He had a son that was born a month after his death. Today, his son is twenty-seven, twenty-eight, and he's vice president of a bank. See? (Laughter)

He called the other day. Well, it's an extension of him. It's just like his arm. He's still with me in that way. Not everybody has the luxury of saying that, but 76:00my grandson is like my son's arm. That's him. That's his arm. I just have been really blessed with children who are talented and hardworking and brilliant and all those things that I'm not. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I don't know about that. (Laughs) Well, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you'd like to cover or you want to add before we look at your artwork?

Haney: Oh, probably not. There's a jillion things we could talk about, but I think we've done quite a bit.

Little Thunder: Well, let's take a look at some of this work, then. Would you like to tell us a little bit about this piece?

Haney: One night I was painting late, as I normally did, three or four o'clock in the morning. I was painting a small owl for a painting, and because of the condition of my eye at the time, my focus, I thought I saw some movement inside the feather. I stopped, and I thought, "Wow, if I could just intentionally do that."

So I put that painting down and pulled this one out, just white canvas, and put a big owl on it. I started putting images inside the owl, using texture of the feathers, even in the eye. Once I did that, when I got through, I had my own style, so to speak. That's been a pretty popular concept. People have enjoyed that. It's almost like a conversation piece. I don't know how much art it is, but people like to talk about it and show it to their peers. I know people think when I paint that I do that with all my paintings. I do not.

Little Thunder: How about this painting?

Haney: It's called Kelli Brooke. Kelli Brooke is my daughter. She lives in Norman. She's a musician. She's a professional photographer. She does some film 78:00making. She was a very young girl at the time we did this in Seminole. She had her Seminole dress on, and the flowers around are the Indian Blanket. The Indian Blanket is the legislation that I passed. Sometimes I do fun things in legislation, and that was one of the fun things. It was for something very specific. I wanted to do a collector plate, and I thought this would work out, so that's why I painted it. It was my painting, so to speak, and I've not been willing to let this one go. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Got to hold on to some.

Haney: This painting is called The Lighthorsemen. At least to the Five Civilized Tribes who had organized law enforcement as part of their system of justice and judicial program of the different tribal governments, The Lighthorsemen in this 79:00time were looked upon like the Texas Rangers or the Mounted Police of Canada. Their reputation was respected. They were feared. In fact, one of the records stated by one of the criminals during that period of time said one of the things he didn't want is "those Light Horsemen coming after us because they'll track us, they'll get us, and they'll kill us." (Laughter)

The Lighthorsemen had that kind of authority. I'm currently writing a book with my son, a story about the Lighthorsemen, starting in Florida and going through the Civil War period and into reconstruction and finally to statehood. That's coming along pretty well.

Little Thunder: That's great. Okay, this is one of your sculptures. What is this piece called?

Haney: It's called Standing His Ground. It's a story that was told to me by Doc 80:00Tate Nevaquaya, some thirty-some-odd years ago, and it kind of stayed with me. When the time came, I visited with him and Woogie Watchetaker, who were great friends of mine, to show me exactly the clothing of the Comanches. I studied the clothing and went through books and artifacts, visited with them. I did two large paintings before they finally said, "Okay. It's okay, now." I tried to make it as authentic as possible, and that includes a lot of research.

This is one of those stories, too, where it's a dramatic image, but it has one message. It's called Standing His Ground for a reason. When faced with insurmountable odds, the warrior would tie himself to the ground and would go no 81:00further. That's his statement to oncoming warriors that, "I'm not moving anymore. This is as far as I'm going. Let's just do what we've got to do."

That's a statement of standing up for what you believe. A family, teacher, businessman, father, mother, a child, we all get to that point where we say, "No more," and we stand our ground. This is more human condition than it is that one warrior.

Little Thunder: Right. Would you like to tell us about this [sculpture]?

Haney: This is the maquette for the twenty-two-foot bronze sculpture that's on top of the State Capitol. It's about twenty inches, the original, so it was enlarged considerably to do the larger. It's an image of a Native person prior 82:00to the coming of the Europeans. To the best of my ability, I used all Native, natural materials for clothing and beads and other things so that it would not represent any particular tribe but represent all tribes.

The one feature about it that I like is (unbeknownst to the people who I created it for, who thought Standing His Ground was too confrontational) I went ahead and put the lance through the bottom of his leggings to tie him to the ground because that's what I believe about Oklahoma. Oklahoma is the kind of people that really stand their ground. Particularly at the State Capitol, it's designed to make a statement about the legislature and the people who are in power, that 83:00their responsibilities in the legislative bodies and judicial bodies and so forth is to take care of the legal rights of the people in the state of Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: Can you tell us about this one?

Haney: This is called Circle of Life. It was a commissioned piece by the Oklahoma Banking Commission which is at Twenty-Eighth Street and North Lincoln Boulevard, just two blocks north of the State Capitol. The original size is five feet tall. This is a replica, the maquette. It's twenty-one inches tall. It's a combination of bronze and stainless steel. The design is the use of what I call negative space design so that certain parts of the body is missing, but it still 84:00is designed so that it looks like the whole. So that's basically what it is.

There are several theological, philosophical concepts about the Circle. Most Native people use the Circle as that one event that ties all of our people together to some degree. It represents the four seasons. It represents the beginning of life to death and the recycling of life, as it were. It also represents that all people, no matter where they live and who they are, whatever their situation is, are of equal value on that Circle, and that [the] Creator places equal value on all people throughout the world.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. Thank you so much for your time, Kelly.

Haney: It's okay. Had to do something. (Laughter)

------- End of interview -------