Oral history interview with Mike Daniel

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Wednesday, December 2, 2011. I'm interviewing Mike Daniel for the Oklahoma Native Artist Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're in Tahlequah at Mike's studio. Mike, you were an art teacher in Tahlequah public schools for thirty-one years, one of the first potters to participate in the reawakening of Southeastern pottery and designs in the state. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Daniel: I was born in Seminole, Oklahoma, and I came to Tahlequah when I was seven months old. I was raised in Tahlequah at Sequoyah Grade School, about three blocks from my studio. I went to school at Tahlequah Public Schools. I attended Northeastern [Oklahoma State University] and graduated there in 1971 1:00with an arts education degree. Taught Native American Art Craft and Cultural Studies in Tahlequah Public Schools to seventh, eighth, and ninth graders and a selected group of high school students.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Daniel: My father was a parts man at Wilson Washington Ford Motor Company for thirty one years, and my mother stayed at home and took care of the house and family. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What are your earliest memories of doing art?

Daniel: Elementary school. The money was limited in elementary school, doing typical, tear-the-paper projects, but in the sixth grade on Friday afternoons 2:00they would call a group of us out of our classroom. We'd go to the cafeteria, and we'd have all kinds of art supplies. We would do artwork all Friday afternoons. It was a lot of fun. I think that's really when the encouragement started. My parents were always very encouraging in the arts, which was unusual for a male back in those days. (Laughter) I think we'd read articles about Jerome Tiger at the Five Civilized Tribes, and that kind of opened things.

Little Thunder: At your home?

Daniel: Yes, it opened things up, the Muskogee Phoenix and all that. I always pursued the arts and went on and studied at Northeastern. Really wanted to be a 3:00painter, and then I got into ceramics my sophomore year. That's where I felt comfortable, and I applied my design work and my painting background into the designs of my work. I guess that's when it all started.

Little Thunder: You really hadn't done any three-dimensional?

Daniel: Well, in high school we did clay work, hand-built projects. There was a potter's wheel available, and I did hand-built projects and did painting and all that. I think I got one of the outstanding art awards when I was a senior in high school, which was a surprise to me. (Laughter) I was always encouraged in the arts in junior high and high school and, like I said, at home, too.

I built my studio and got things running. Matter of fact, my first firing in my 4:00kiln was in [1976]. We went to the Bicentennial in Washington DC, and I participated in that area. It was a lot of fun. They called in the Five Civilized Tribes groups, so that was fun, to participate.

Little Thunder: You put some artwork in there?

Daniel: Had some artwork there, and we got to play stickball on Lincoln Plaza. (Laughter) Not many people get to do that, so that was fun. But that's when it all started. Started going to little shows and then dealt with some galleries and some markets through the years. Art's just been a part of who I am.

My philosophy on being an art educator, you need to do art yourself and be out 5:00trying to market it so the kids will know. I think one of the problems with art educators, they're not really out in the real world, even on the college level, but that's changing. Some of my colleagues now are teaching at universities, but they're out in the art world trying to market their work, too. I think that part is changing to some extent.

Little Thunder: You were adopted, and your adoptive parents were Indian, and they really encouraged your exposure to Indian art. Did you get to see any Indian paintings or anything else around town that really made an impression on you as a child?

Daniel: Riley White used to be the art teacher at Sequoyah High School, and he'd have paintings around town, so I saw his paintings. We would do little art shows 6:00in high school, and the high school teacher, (I didn't have a car to drive) he would let me drive his truck to set up art shows. He'd send high school students to the local library to set up an art show. So exposure in art in high school. Bill Nichols was one of my art teachers. He encouraged me, but it was all types of art. Yes, I was encouraged in the arts. My father and I built the studio I'm currently in. When he retired, he refinished wood and worked in wood. I got one little corner, and after a year or two of finding sawdust in my clay, we 7:00expanded. (Laughter) When my father retired, we did a lot of things together like that. It was a lot of fun. He helped me buy my first potter's wheel and my first kiln. My mother--they always encouraged me in the arts. There's been a lot of people in college and my adult life that have pulled me through the art world.

One of my first shows when I got out and hit the art circuit was the Children's Medical Center in Tulsa. Big show. I was up on stage with Woody Crumbo and Solomon McCombs. Of course, another young artist was there, so they gave me encouragement. Then I made a trade with Solomon McCombs, and his piece of art he traded was worth more than my pottery, but he said, "No, I like that." I learned 8:00to listen. It's not always the price, but I can't ever get anybody to trade with me where mine is less and theirs is more. (Laughter)

Yes, I have been encouraged. My influences in the arts were Cecil Dick, Joseph Lonewolf, Fred Beaver, Solomon McCombs, and Kelly Haney. They all encouraged me as a new artist in the '70s. One of my first galleries was Kelly Haney's gallery in Shawnee. I've been encouraged in the arts. Of course, if you're an American Indian artist, a lot of times, unless you go to a specific school that teaches that, you have to learn what you learned in your college teachings and apply it 9:00to your American Indian art or your Indian art, whatever they want to call it today. (Laughter) I just call it Indian art. To me, that's what it is. I was always encouraged.

Little Thunder: Can you talk a bit about the Southeastern revival of the pottery tradition? Anna Mitchell was, of course, one of the first ones to explore that, but there was a group of you.

Daniel: Yes, I think it was a neat deal. I was in the Cherokee Artists Association, and we later changed to the Southeastern [Indian] Artists Association to make it more inclusive of more tribal groups. Anna Mitchell and Bill Glass and myself, and Nokovti Scott as a shell maker, and Anna as a traditional potter, and Bill and I as contemporary potters, we just started the 10:00movement of helping people understand what Southeastern art is, our history, where we came from, and what our designs mean.

It's still a teaching process because there are still a lot of people that aren't aware of Southeastern art. Bill and I and Anna had a workshop. We used Anna's advice. We did a traditional pottery workshop, and Anna was supervising everything for our artist group. People came in, invited people, and did traditional firing and everything. It's an educational process. It makes it interesting as far as seeing more and more, especially the Five Tribes, using 11:00these designs. They're calling them their designs, but it goes a lot further back than that, but it's okay. At least they know what it is and what they're doing. I'm glad to see that, that we know our own designs and we're using them now in all forms of art, from pottery to beading to painting. It's encouraging to see that. The new generation is at least growing up and they know where they came from. As I've always said, art is our history. Before the written word, we had the art word.

Of course, putting a plug in for potters, if we have an atomic explosion, the pottery's still going to be sitting there, and all these paintings will be burned up. (Laughter) I really feel good about where people are, as far as 12:00education in Southeastern or Mound Builder or Woodland art. It comes in a lot of different names, or Mississippian art. It's really encouraging, especially to see the potters that are doing all the designs, and then they're working it into paintings and graphics and even contemporary sculpture. It's really good to see that.

Little Thunder: With your early pots, for example, the one that McCombs traded you for, what was your style like at that point?

Daniel: The designs weren't as refined. It wasn't refined, and the coloring wasn't as deep as it is now. I've only used two types of clays during my, I 13:00guess we're going on thirty-nine or forty years, in my art career. It was a little bit lighter, and the designs were more primitive. I've talked to people that have some of my early works, and offered to buy it back from them. They said, "No, it makes mine worth more." (Laughter) I said, "Well, it's pretty doggy," but they said, "No, we'll go ahead and keep it."

It was enjoyable. There's a piece right there, Julie, that light piece. That was one of my first pieces. I was using wax resist and not doing a lot of etching into the pottery when I first started. Even when they did use resist, it was like animal fats. They didn't have the wax resist as they do today.

Little Thunder: What was one of the first awards that you got, or an especially memorable award?

Daniel: When I first started out and went to competition, I took my work over to the Five Civilized Tribes. They had a pottery division. I went over there and was going to enter my work, and the ladies there said, "We love your work, but we can't take it because it's not traditional." I said, "I understand. You're calling traditional, the clay has to be hand-dug and processed and fired in a traditional way?" They said, "Yes." I said, "Okay, I understand."

Then, about six o'clock that evening, I got a call from one of the board members. Her name was Henrietta Johnson. She was from the South, and she talked slower than I do. (Laughter) She said, "I understand that you got your work 15:00rejected at the Five Civilized Tribes." I said, "Yes, ma'am, I sure did, but I understand the rules and the guidelines." She said, "Well, we're going to start a new division: wheel-thrown pottery. Some of our people need to learn that you're the new group of artists that have been to college and you're educated in different ways." So the Five Civilized Tribes started the wheel-thrown division, and it opened the doors.

Little Thunder: And you got into that show.

Daniel: I got into that show. I didn't get mad about it. I understood, and it's opened the doors for other artists. I wish more shows would have a contemporary division or a wheel-thrown division, but I will say the art market that the Cherokee Nation sponsors in the fall has a good competition. I was able to place 16:00in that this year, which was a surprise to me, second place, competing with traditional pottery and contemporary.

Little Thunder: Oh, they were all together?

Daniel: It was all together, and a lot of those shows do that. If I win an award, I feel like it's really something when you're competing with your colleagues in their own divisions. Things have opened up. That's probably the first memorable show. Through the years, I've won various awards. This stage in my career, if I win something, it's a bonus. I just love to do the art now. Of course, that ribbon sells a piece of art sometimes, so I'm happy about that. (Laughter)

I really appreciate the art world now that it's a lot more encouraging in Oklahoma than it used to be when we first started out, and even in the '30s and '40s when they started the movement like the Jacobson House and all that. They've got a long way to go, too, to get on the same level as New Mexico and Arizona and Colorado and Utah, but hopefully it'll be that way before I go to the next world. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What were some of the galleries that were important to you in the early days?

Daniel: I got to show at Doris Littrell's gallery for a few years and then, Linda Greever, the Art Market, which was always encouraging. Then I moved to 18:00Andy Payne's daughter's gallery in Oklahoma City. Now I'm currently dealing at Gilcrease Museum in the gift shop/gallery. They've been encouraging my work in pottery for, probably, ten to fifteen years. I think the reason that happened was Linda put on a show for us. They had the national convention of state representatives in Tulsa one year, and it was during the Tulsa powwow. She got a tent for us, and we set up really fine art, and we showed our work there.

Some of the state representatives came through and the state representatives' 19:00wives, and they said, "This is magnificent art. How come we haven't seen it at Gilcrease and the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Philbrook?" I said, "That's a good question. You need to ask them that." Not long after that, I started getting calls from the different local entities in the state that wanted to start handling more Oklahoma art. What's funny now is the movement is "American made." I think we can boast as Native artists that it's American made by indigenous Americans, so that's kind of the movement now. (Laughter)

Those are the people that have encouraged me. Now I do shows and marketing through the new inventions of computers and websites and all that sort of thing. 20:00I still enjoy going to shows and visiting with the artists.

Little Thunder: Booth shows are a part of your--

Daniel: Yes, there's the new artists and the middle artists and the old dogs like myself. We're still out doing the art and trying to sell it. It's a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: From the very beginning, you've done stoneware. Functionality has been important to you?

Daniel: Actually, what I call my work is decorative work. It is stoneware, and you could bake and cook or serve in it, but hopefully they'll consider it a piece of art and set it up on their mantle or in their display case, but it is functional. It's high-fire, natural gas reduction kiln, fired at 2,300 degrees. I'm able to control the colorization in it by reducing the oxygen or giving it 21:00oxygen. That's kind of where I am now.

I still use earth tones, and my colors, besides slips and engobes and stains, are black and turquoise and clear. I'm just moving into a stage where I want to use some purple. That's kind of been with me a couple of years. I try to use colors that you see all around you every day, but not many glazes. I still want the feel of the clay. I put the circles of life on the inside. I think that's the distinction of my work, that it is decorated on the inside. But it is high fire, so if someone wanted to buy it and use it as a functional piece, they could.

Little Thunder: You were so successful from the beginning with your pots. What prompted you to go into teaching?

Daniel: I graduated at midterm, and Tahlequah public schools had called me. I had done my intern teaching with my former art teacher, Ms. Purdy. They had an opening at midterm for an art educator. Teaching junior high students is quite a task sometimes, but I always enjoyed that age. They really work hard if you can get a hold of them and get them going. I thought, "Well, I'll teach a little 23:00while and stay in the art, go into art full time." But I liked it, so I stayed with it. Thirty one years later, I finished.

I was very fortunate. At that time, the government schools were closing up. American Indian students were coming into public schools, and they wanted to hire identifiable Indian educators. I was in that group. When I retired, I noticed the people that retired with me, probably 30 percent or 40 percent of us were identifiable Indian educators. I hope they replaced us with the same group. That was the setup.

Then I got federally funded programs, Johnson O'Malley and Title VII, to 24:00encourage Indian students in the arts. My role was to encourage them to stay in school because at that time, and still, we have a high number of dropout students that are American Indian students. Part of my job was not just to teach art but encourage kids to stay in school and do the best they could. If they came in my class, they had to join the Indian club. I have a lot of my former students that say, "That's the only club I ever enjoyed, and your class was the only class I ever enjoyed." But they graduated from high school. What I encouraged them in, I said, "What we do in here, beading, pottery, baskets, jewelry, leather work, or whatever, you can learn these basics, and maybe you can use it as added income."

I still get students that are in their thirties or forties today that say, "I'm 25:00still doing beadings or baskets, and you're right. I can pay for my driver's license or my car insurance or buy baby diapers and baby food with what we learned." (Laughter) That's what was neat about it. Several of the students went on to pursue an art career some way. Being an art educator, I also had the philosophy that I had two full-time jobs because I was a full-time artist, too. Of course, when I first started out I would get repercussions about, "Well, you have another job." A gallery owner told me one time, "You're just as prolific or more prolific than a lot of the full-time artists," (Laughter) so that was encouraging. It's just double work.

I used to run competitively. I'd come in and take a break for an hour or so, and 26:00then go run five to ten miles, come in, rest for an hour and a half, then do my art for four or five hours. Go home and rest, and start teaching again. It was a lot of fun, and at least I was in shape and never wore down for a long time. (Laughter)

It was the students and the encouragement of the students, especially American Indian students, to have them pursue their high school degree. Then if they moved on into college or whatever they did, they got exposed to all kinds of art. We'd take field trips to Tulsa, Oklahoma City, to Gilcrease, Philbrook, the State Capitol, which is a gallery itself. That was in the early days before they did have a gallery. It was really a lot of fun. The last field trip we took to 27:00Oklahoma City, one of our representatives and the Speaker of the House, Larry Adair and Bob Ed Culver, he greeted us and took us through the Chambers. We looked at all the art, and we took a group picture together. Those guys were with us. It was to encourage kids. They were learning things. A lot of them had never been out of Cherokee County, so they got to see art. We'd go by Tinker Air Force Base, and they'd be looking. (Laughter) They'd never seen big airplanes.

People don't realize that we still have young people in our community that haven't been exposed to a lot of that sort of thing. Art can take in a lot of volume, a big world for the kids. Whether they pursued it in American Indian 28:00art--when computers came out, I encouraged them that that was the future of art, like the animation and movies, what they're doing with computers now. Some of our new artists in our Southeastern Artist Association are in that area. Everything's cool now. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You've always kind of been few in number as potters here in Oklahoma. How did the Indian art landscape change from the '70s to the '80s?

Daniel: I think in the '70s and'80s, it stayed about the same, and then in the '90s, I think the boom hit. Other artists were being recognized in the art world. Pottery in this area was conceived as an art form instead of a craft form.

Little Thunder: That was the breakthrough?

Daniel: The breakthrough. I read in Southwest Art, their summarization, "When does a craft become art?" It's when you take it up to that second and third and fourth level. It's finally done that. A lot of artists, a lot of potters in Oklahoma, Indian and non-Indian, are functional potters. That's fine. As a potter, you put yourself in a niche where you're trying to sell three-dimensional work, but it's still all original work. There's no duplication of it. Then you put yourself in a smaller niche as an Indian artist, and you put yourself in a smaller niche, doing Southeastern designs.

I've put myself in all those niches, but I think it's been good for me because I educate myself. I learn something new, or I'm willing to try something new every two or three years where my work is not stale all the time. When I hear my fellow colleagues say, "Your work seems to be evolving," they're the biggest critics in a positive way that you can have. It's encouraging when you still hear that when you've been at it for so long.

Little Thunder: In the 1990s, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, requiring artists to have proof of enrollment or a letter certifying their status with the tribe. Do you remember how that impacted galleries and artists?

Daniel: Yes, I think it caused division. You know, like Red Earth and the Five Civilized Tribes, it caused division and hard feelings. Being an adopted Indian child, I saw both sides of the page. I was lucky that I had my documentation and am a federally-recognized Indian artist. Some of the artists aren't today, and some of the artists that were really doing well at that time have pulled way back. Like I said, I see both sides of it. What I would say is if parents adopt 32:00Indian children, before they adopt those Indian children, they make sure, some way, if the parents don't want to give their names, have some kind of documentation, that they get their full recognition from all tribal groups. I would hope that all tribal groups would think enough of the children to recognize them in that area because they can't help their circumstances. They can't help where they came from or who their parents were. If they were raised in a positive family, that's what counts.

Being American Indian, it's who we are. If you know your clan, if you have an 33:00Indian name, or you're a member of a band, that's something nobody else has, and somebody else shouldn't be able to take that away from you. The division was there. I think it's not as bad as it was, but you have art shows that only take federally-recognized tribal artists, which is fine. Other shows, you have to sign a waiver on it sometimes. I noticed the last four or five or six or seven years, there have been some prosecutions that have come out of it. I really don't know the answer, what a good answer is. All I can say is I see both sides of the coin.

Some people that I know, they've traced everything in their heritage, but with the Five Tribes, their name's not on the Dawes Roll, and they may be higher blood quantum than, sometimes, the people that are on the Dawes Roll. I would say if they really want to test things and really want to prove who they are, they have DNAs now where you can do that.

It may surprise people who are registered and not registered how things really turn out sometimes. (Laughter) It affected art and the art market, but we survived, and the people that aren't registered are still surviving. They're still selling their art. They just had to go a different direction. We that are recognized, it helps us, too. There's room enough for everybody, I think. It 35:00just depends on what markets you want to attend and don't want to attend.

Little Thunder: You were involved with the Chattanooga [Tennessee, Trail of Tears] project. Can you talk about that a little bit? I think you all had to submit who was involved.

Daniel: Yes, Bill Glass was in charge of that. He's a good friend of mine, and I feel fortunate that he wanted me to participate in it as a ceramicist. I helped Bill do some of the plaques, or the discs, that are in Chattanooga now. Of course, Bill was in charge. He had the art all laid out, and all we did as clay 36:00workers is put the parts and reproduce them and make them the way he wanted.

It's really a very good project, and it's where everything started, especially the Cherokees and Creeks in Chattanooga. It was very interesting being there for the opening and have people recognize Southeastern art. That is the epitome of Southeastern art, the discs that we did and displayed. The stainless steel sculpture and the spider in the pool, [Little Water Spider] that's the beginning. That's where John Ross' Trail of Tears started.

What's funny, talking to Jon Tiger, the Creeks owned that land first, and they 37:00were fighting over it. (Laughter) You know, we're always going to kind of mess with each other, but it was an honor to be involved in that project, and it's still an honor.

Little Thunder: Pretty emotional to be in that place.

Daniel: Yes, yes, to be at that place, and the city of Chattanooga to support the arts, to come up with the funding. I wish Oklahoma's cities could do that sort of funding. They have done some projects. They have funded some projects, but there's always room for more. If the Five Civilized Tribes would go in together, pool all their money together and do some kind of project involving all the Five Civilized Tribes, that would be a great project somewhere, somehow, 38:00in Tulsa or Oklahoma City or a little town like Tahlequah or someplace neutral. That would be an interesting good project for that to happen.

Little Thunder: You're one of the Master Artists [of the Five Civilized Tribes Museum]? Not yet?

Daniel: Not a Master Artist yet. (Laughter) A lot of people say, "Well, you're a Master Artist." I said, "I don't know about that." We laugh about it sometimes. There are good artists that are Master Artists, and I've been at it a long time, so that's good enough for me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What has been one of the most exciting awards for you, or honors?

Daniel: I think one of the most memorable pieces or awards was at Red Earth when 39:00it had a lot of dignity. Allan Houser was one of the judges. I did an effigy piece. An effigy piece is a piece with a face on it. It had the ears and the eyes. I'd taken pink mussel shell and put in the earlobes and had real feathers coming out of the ears. Allan Houser was one of the judges, and I think I won second or third on it. It's been so long ago. The competition was really stiff, so that was an honor. Allan came by my booth and complimented that piece of 40:00work, and I shook his hand and said, "I feel like it's an honor for you to be the judge."

We had a mutual friend, which was Cecil Dick. They both went to Santa Fe together at the institute [Santa Fe Indian School]. He told me some good stories he and Cecil pulled in the '30s and '40s in Santa Fe. (Laughter) He even wrote a little note, and I gave it to Cecil. That was probably one of the premiere artists in the world, and he was the judge. Probably, that's the most memorable thing I can say about my art, also getting encouragement from the older artists when I first started out.

Little Thunder: Can you talk a bit about your friendship with Cecil Dick? Would you see him at shows? Did you go visit him?

Daniel: He only lived four blocks up, so he would come by, and we'd talk. He was always encouraging.

Little Thunder: He was really strong on cultural content.

Daniel: Strong. When he went to Santa Fe--he told the story. He went to Chilocco [Indian School], and he'd try to run off every weekend. The superintendent said, "You're [like] trying to put a square peg in a round hole, so we're going to send you to the institute in Santa Fe." Cecil always had a story. Even when he went to the institute, he always kept his Cherokee Southeastern heritage alive through doing his art.

Little Thunder: Which was unusual because the pressure was to do Plains.

Daniel: He didn't cave in to doing what everybody was doing then. He might've done a few, but later on he always did his own work and his own style. It was good to sit and philosophize with Cecil. We came up with the theory--teaching the culture and everything in class, he said, "I'm a firm believer that the Southeastern people came up by water from the Southeast." What was funny, every morning we had the educational TV, and we'd watch it for five minutes in school. Then, this great new discovery: some of the tribal groups came up by water from the Southeast! I told Cecil that story, and we both laughed about it and said, "We must be geniuses, Cecil." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You've gotten compliments on your business sense, which 43:00sometimes for artists, that's hard for them to get. What were some of the early lessons you figured out?

Daniel: Just try to have everything ready and have it organized and have it priced and ready to go, even though you may show up almost time for the opening of the gallery. Doris Littrell made that comment to me, that she thought I handled business pretty good, but I'm going to have to probably disagree with her on about half. (Laughter) I always try, I guess from teaching, to have preparation and be ready to go, even though I may finish firing it a day or six hours before I'm supposed to be at a show. Have everything ready to go and be organized. It's been fun marketing my work. The thing about the pottery I do, 44:00every piece has a title. I think people appreciate that. The price is on there, the title and the price. I think it distinguishes it as a piece of art as opposed to a functional piece. Like I said, my work, hopefully, people will think of as art or decorative art, brought it up from a craft to, hopefully, an artistic level. Maybe it's helped open the doors for other potters in this area, too.

Little Thunder: Is the title on the inside or on the bottom?

Daniel: I write the title on the bottom. It's carved into the pottery. Then I'll have my tag on the inside for marketing with the title and the price on there, just like you'd see a painting. I think people appreciate that, too. That way 45:00they don't have to talk to me very much. (Laughter) No, I always try to be educational in the process about educating them in what the title means and what the theory was on it. I think it's helped in marketing the work.

Little Thunder: A lot of potters have had to branch out. It seems like the market got really tough towards the end of the '90s, early 2000s, but you've pretty much held fast to the aesthetic. The aesthetic function came first.

Daniel: I did. Of course, I was fortunate that I did have a teaching job. I held 46:00fast and stayed with it. My mother got ill for about two years, so I kind of had to do the shows I could and look after her. Now that she's gone, I see the economy changing to some extent. What I'm judging that from is the Five Civilized Tribes, Art Under the Oaks, and the Cherokee Art Market at the Hard Rock [Casino]. As far as the work that I'm doing and what I'm trying to present, I was still selling okay. I try to market my work where I have prices for 47:00beginning collectors up to the collectors that want to spend more. I've always tried to have a wide price range.

I've seen the market change through the years, doing some of the bigger shows, but I always like to stay as regional as I can. I like that feeling of being around the artists. If it wasn't for Santa Fe Market, a lot of people wouldn't know about who we are and where we come from, and even it's opened up to Southeastern art and artists, even the divisions they have now. I read their 48:00theory a couple of years ago on judging art in the new divisions. A lot of artists are doing new things, so they've had to open up new divisions in new areas. That includes Southeastern designs on pottery. That's really good. It's really a good deal. You have to market your work and have it set up and be ready to go at most of your shows and have things going. I'm not saying that I don't wait until the last minute, either. I try to do as good as I can. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You did Santa Fe Indian Market for a couple of years. In your first experiences, is there anything that stands out?

Daniel: I was new. Actually, they used to have an outlaw division. That's the 49:00division where I'd set up. It was during Market, but that was a separate entity. It was really the response I got. With the designs and my style and the colors, a lot of people appreciated that it was something new and fresh, something they hadn't been seeing before, so that's where I was. Then I had some markets at Taos. I used to deal with a gallery there for a few years, but in the art, we come and go. We deal with galleries for a few years or deal with markets, and then sometimes you move to another area in another market.

My experience in Santa Fe was positive. I hadn't been back in a while, and I 50:00went back a few years ago. It's gotten so big and expanded so much. I know it's hard on the artists (I would think that it is) to try to market your work in that big atmosphere. On the other side, it's showing that they're opening up to a lot of different areas and a lot of different venues. Being in that area, that's the art mecca of the United States, I would say, for American Indian art at least. I think it's nothing but good to help an artist to experience that, to go through that experience. Some of my colleagues, they've been doing it for twenty or twenty-five or thirty years and never missed a year. I admire them for that.

Little Thunder: What have been your experiences with Eastern Band Cherokees? 51:00Have you shown out there?

Daniel: I haven't shown out there. I haven't really shown out there. Dr. [Michael] Abram used to be a collector of mine, and he had his own gallery/museum out there, so my work has been exposed out there. They have shows there. I really am kind of uneducated on what the quality of the work is. I know that the Eastern Band were promoting the arts really strong before they were [promoted] in this area. They've always stood behind their artists and promoted there.

I think probably Joel Queen is one of the premier potters in that area. He's done a lot to show people some new avenues of Southeastern pottery. I mean, he's taken it three or four levels on up. I have had exposure. My work's been seen in a lot of different areas, but once I sell it to a gallery--or sometimes you don't know where it goes and who comes in and buys it. Maybe another gallery will come in and buy it and move it to another place.

Somebody visited with me and said, "I saw your work in Las Vegas in a gallery." I said, "Somebody must have been hard up and sold their whole collection." (Laughter) It's really been funny. Another lady said, "I saw your work in a 53:00gallery in Santa Fe," and I said, "I've never dealt with that gallery." "It was your work. I went in there, and I looked at it," and she said, "Man, that looks like it's been cast." She turned it over, and it had the cast lines in there. She said, "It had your name on it." I said, "Well, the only thing I can say about that, I guess my work was better than I thought it was because somebody wanted to go ahead and cast it." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You mentioned that your style of pottery has changed a bit over the years. It's gotten more refined, I guess, in terms of designs. Can you talk about that a little more, and do you use stamps, or do you draw freehand?

Daniel: I'll set the piece of pottery up, and I'll look at it, look at the shape 54:00and form and then figure out what design needs to go on there. Ninety six percent of the time, it's all done by hand. Just look at the piece and put the design on there and cut it in, the etching or sgraffito.

I had a lady that was a collector of Cecil's. She was deer clan, and I'm deer clan. He'd done a painting for me, and I told her, "Well, what I'll do is use his deer on your pottery. That way you'll get both of us." So I did that. Sometimes I'll draw something out--they have some transparent plastic that you 55:00can put on pottery to repeat the design, but I think most people appreciate, even though the designs are alike, they're a little bit different. It's not the same. The cut on the nose or something like that is a little bit different. Hopefully I've evolved where the design work is more intricate and more in my own motif.

Matter of fact, I bought a book just a few days back. It's The Greatest People of the World, and Picasso was in there. Of course, he studied American Indian art for his influence in his contemporary. The irony to that, I've been thinking about his style and everything the last two or three pieces. I did a piece with 56:00some Mound Builder speakers on there, their heads and everything, and got a comment that they [collector] would like to have another piece like that. But simplification in art, you have to know what the detail was before you simplify it.

Some of the things I'll hopefully do in the next three or four years will be a little more contemporary, just mix what I'm doing now, have my base pieces. The things that are real time-consuming may be a little more contemporary with a Southeastern influence. It was interesting. I've read about him three or four times, how he was influenced by the early Native art, so I see it may be moving.

I never used glazes until four or five or six years ago. Since I've been using a turquoise called Early Morning Turquoise, those seem to sell a lot. I've been using a black glaze, and it seems to be selling well. The glazes that I chose seem to be the colors that are working and the combinations of colors. I've been using some real green engobes and yellow engobes and sky blue engobes, just a hint of it, in the last few pieces I've done. I did a piece called As Long as the Grass Grows and the Water Flows. I attached shell to the side of it, and 58:00people seemed to like that style.

Hopefully, the evolution will keep going. It may be very subtle and simple, but I know there's been a change there, and if somebody sees it, they notice the change, too. Matter of fact, one of my former students bought my first piece using the new style of the colors and the water flowing. Now I'm at a stage in my career that my successful students are buying art from me, so it really makes it good! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: They not only stayed in school, they're making money to buy art.

Daniel: That's right. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Some of your basic shapes are the platter, the seed pot?

Daniel: Bowl shapes. Really, I haven't done seed pots in about two or three 59:00years. I haven't done platters in probably fifteen years. That's the thing about a functional potter. They're doing the same thing all the time. Of course, they're selling their mugs at five or six dollars apiece, so you have to do that. I revisit what I've done in the past but maybe in a little bit different style and a little bit different way. This show at Gilcrease, I wanted to do something different. I'm going to have what I call a combination piece where it's two pieces of pottery put together, one on top of the other, with a neck on it. You'll look at the old style Southeastern pottery, and they used to do that. My philosophy is what's new is old and what's old is new.

Little Thunder: You've had your house at Tenkiller for a while, but your studio has always been here. How did that feed into your creative process? What were the advantages or disadvantages of not living where your studio was?

Daniel: Oh, teaching, I'd always be in town. I'd come into town. The reason I had to do it here is we had natural gas, and natural gas is less expensive for firing. Out on Lake Tenkiller, we didn't have natural gas for a long time. Matter of fact, I was one of the guys that voted to bring natural gas out to Tenkiller. What I did out there was, when I'd do sculpture and painting, I would 61:00do it out there. I'd do that, just a little, not a whole lot. What I laugh at is sometimes people think because you're known for pottery you don't do sculpture. You don't do painting. That's been something that's been on my mind for a couple of years, so I may kick some out here. Mainly because of the natural gas being in Tahlequah, I built my studio in town. Being in town every day, I would do it.

On the other side, when I was out on the lake, I could sit there quietly and sketch it out or think about the ideas that I was going to do when I came into town. Houser, he was talking about his studio was twenty-five or thirty miles 62:00away. He said, "It gives me time to reflect what I'm going to do today, and then when I go home at night, I kind of ease back." When I'd be coming in from Park Hill in the morning and the sun would be coming up, I'd reflect on what I was going to teach that day and how I was going to teach it and what I was going to do in the studio. Then when I'd go home, I'd feel, "I've accomplished something today." It gives you a lot of time for reflection.

Little Thunder: So you do sketch out things, occasionally? Is sketching a big process or part of it?

Daniel: I'll sketch out shapes, forms, and designs. Then other times, I just go for it. It just depends on what the piece is. Maybe a commission piece, I might 63:00think about the shape, form, and designs. Sometimes I'll carry that thought in my mind for two or three months, what I'm going to do, and then it'll be there. It's ready to go.

Little Thunder: You don't keep a notebook, necessarily?

Daniel: I do. I keep sketchbooks and notebooks, and I'll write things down. Like an artist would have a sketchbook, not necessarily even sketches, just some thoughts or something I want to try. If I lose that thought, I can refer back to it. Yes, I do.

Little Thunder: Your clan symbol is also part of your logo on your pots.

Daniel: Yes, yes. I put a deer on the bottom of my pottery. I started doing that several years ago, and then I put a C for "copyrighted," too. Hopefully, that 64:00will do some good. Of course, I always sign every piece. Every piece has a signature on it.

Little Thunder: How do you do the designs on the inside? Is that a bit of a challenge?

Daniel: Actually, when I have my colors all laid out, while the wheel is going around, I just load my brush and put the circles on the inside. It's simple. I guess it looks more complicated than it really is to a lot of people. When somebody'll come by the booth, they go inside first, and then they come outside. Or they'll look outside, and then it's a surprise when they look at the inside to see that it's decorated, too. Not using many glazes or a solid color of 65:00glaze, you might have a black glaze, an amber engobe, and a white engobe on the inside as well as the outside, so it's kind of a surprise.

Of course, the symbolism is the circle of life, and the fire is in the center. We go full circle in life from infant to childhood to adulthood to elder. Also, on some of the real pieces, (like, I'll do a competitive piece) I may have the wheel go the opposite way than you normally work because if you go to a ceremonial grounds, they're going counterclockwise. So the circle goes 66:00counterclockwise, and then it stops.

"How do you do that?" You get that question. Of course, your coordination, you've got to catch one or the other. (Laughter) It's fun. I had a friend, Freeman Mitchell, he wanted to put some Southeastern designs as border designs on a couple of his paintings, so I drew some out and gave them to him. He said, "Man, those are more complicated than they look. It looks simple, but when you start doing it," he said, "it's not as simple." I said, "I know from my research. I tried to do some of them." I have to play with them for a little while to get them to do right. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you listen to music, have the TV on when you're working?

Daniel: I listen to music. Right now, I've got about five new discs of Ray 67:00Charles singing with different groups, and I was rocking out to it the other [day]. His brand new one is digitally enhanced. It doesn't even sound like it. I'm debating whether I like it or not. The rhythm of the work, what you're going to do--I have some discs to relax your mind or get you in the work mood. A lot of times I'll play flute music, too. It kind of relaxes you and gets you in the mood. I listen to music a lot. I have a little TV, but my cable doesn't run out here, so it's just me and the pottery and the music. I'll listen to 97.1, the sports channel, too, to see whether I can coach or not. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Looking back on your artistic career so far, what was a real fork-in-the-road moment for you?

Daniel: Building the studio and investing in a potter's wheel and investing in a kiln. My father, hand-building the studio. We did it together. A carpenter friend of both of ours helped us, too, but we built this from the ground up. He's still with me. I have a little tool that I use that helps get my disk off the wheel. That was his awl that he used to start his drills with.

Of course, in ceramics, you see a lot of people that'll buy the potter's wheel and the kiln, and they use it six times, and then they're done with it. But we 69:00had quite an investment. That, and starting out. Once some of the gallery people wanted me to show in their galleries, that was a word of encouragement, like Kelly Haney and Linda, you know, the early people, and Ms. Littrell for a few years, there. That was encouragement. Then having locals come and want to buy your stuff.

Little Thunder: You did have a gallery in Tahlequah.

Daniel: I had my own gallery.

Little Thunder: Were you one of the first artists to get--

Daniel: I was one of the first groups. It was really neat. Dana Tiger and myself and Raymond Vann, we all opened up galleries. Each one had a different venue, 70:00and we made our own little brochure how to get to the galleries and everything. I'd get the comment, "What about the competition?" I said, "I wish this whole north end was full of galleries just like Taos." I've always believed that Tahlequah could be another Taos, and it's turning into that. They're promoting their art and artists, so I think it's a good deal.

Running that little gallery was working on a shoestring, but some of the out-of-towners would come in, and they said, "This looks like a little gallery I'd see in Taos." I said, "That's the effect I wanted." Of course, I might have a Ben Harjo painting in the next room for twenty thousand dollars, but I wanted people to see that we sell our work for more than 250 dollars. The 71:00out-of-towners and out-of-country people didn't blink an eye. But it's funny, the locals that would come in. (Laughter) It was fun. I enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: You were still teaching at the time, too?

Daniel: I was teaching at the time. My partnership didn't work out, but it was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed it. The presentation was--I'd been in enough galleries to know what it needed. I tried to mix local artists with pretty well-known artists at the time. I had Ben Harjo and Bert Seabourn in there and other artists. It worked out really well, and that was before everything happened as far as the art laws and all that. No, it was after that, but the people that 72:00weren't registered, we had a disclosure in there. I asked the other artists, "Are you okay with this?" the federally-recognized artists, and they said, "We're fine with it." We all worked together.

Little Thunder: One of your high points might have been that show at the children's medical center.

Daniel: Yes, it was, to help me get started. I got to show when I first started out with Woody Crumbo and Solomon McCombs. Myself and Burgess Roy, we were the two new young guys coming through. Of course, Woody and Solomon were very 73:00established, and they encouraged me in the arts. Then I did a little show in Muskogee at the community building there. Fred Beaver was set up there, so we talked a little bit. What's neat is being able to show with some of those elders. Then Cecil Dick and I did a couple of shows together. To be able to have shown with those elders that opened the doors for us, those were the artists from the '30s and '40s that broke ground for the artists of the '60s and '70s.

I always tried to keep up with what was going on in the art world all around the United States. I've kind of fallen behind in that area, but I'd say I'm really into my art, now. It's going to take care of itself, and it always works out. 74:00With the art, your bank account would get real thin, and then all of a sudden you'd be able to sell some art. That was even with a teaching job. When you started teaching in the '70s, you weren't making a lot. I was teaching, working in a clothing store, and trying to do my art, too. I was going full scale.

Little Thunder: What was one of the low points in your career?

Daniel: You know, I can't say I really have had a low point, Julie. The Creator has been good to me. What I try to do is take the gifts that the Creator gave me and use them, teaching young people in the arts and doing my art. I was raised to think positive, and I've always thought positive about my art. There were 75:00times when the market was down and you just had to survive, but I really haven't had any low points that I can say.

It's a matter of survival. If the economy is bad, you have to adjust to it and move on. There have been years where you weren't marketing your work as well as you probably should have, but I've had a lot of high peaks, too, and middle peaks and low peaks as far as art selling. I've been fairly consistent through my career, and the art world has been good to me. I feel very fortunate to be an artist and be an American Indian artist.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we haven't covered that you'd like to add, 76:00anything we forgot to talk about?

Daniel: In closing, I'd just like to say that I know the state of Oklahoma is doing the best they can do, but I would like for them to get behind the arts more, find funding, complete their museum because it's going to be a great asset to the state of Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: The American Indian Cultural Center?

Daniel: Yes, the American Indian Cultural Center, and to stand behind their art and artists because we talk about entrepreneurship. If they stop to think, all artists and Indian artists, we have been entrepreneurs since the '20s, since the Kiowa Five. We've been trying to market our work on our own, which is okay.

I would like to see, maybe, the Cherokees have their art market in the fall, Indian Summer, if one of the other tribes, maybe the Creeks could have a spring show at their casino. That is a good market area, and people seem to come, but the state of Oklahoma and each tribal group stand behind their art and artists and at least recognize them because, like I've said, art is the spoken word because there's no written word. It's always been here. It's carried our culture through centuries. The new generation of art and artists, just remember where 78:00you came from and who you are and where you're going.

Little Thunder: Great. We're going to take a look at some of your pots, now. What's the title on this piece?

Daniel: This is called Green Corn Ascension. It represents the ceremonial Green Corn Dance where it's a celebration of the fall or spring and the different moons. I have a full moon, a quarter moon, and the corn, and the people celebrating. It's an all-inclusive celebration held. The stars and the moons and the people and the corn and the water design. You can see the little designs 79:00below the corn and the people represent the ground. Of course, the stars represent the sky. It's just a celebration of a lot of different tribal groups who come together for unity and fellowship.

Little Thunder: Beautiful. How about this piece?

Daniel: This has a more flowing design to it. Actually, the flowing designs represent the water that you would see. Right now, there's a movement to protect our Native American Indian waters in Oklahoma. That's kind of been my movement in my designs the last couple of years is make people aware of the water. Of course, the water is sacred to us. We use it for a lot of different things, 80:00especially in healing and prayer. The little half circles represents the sun coming up or the rocks you'd see in a stream. The little stripes that fill in between the half circles or semicircles represent the rain that comes down. This would be a water design, keeping in mind that without water, most cultures don't exist.

Little Thunder: Would you like to talk about this piece?

Daniel: This is called the serpent design. All my work always has circles on the inside. The circles represent the circle of life, that we have to go full circle from infancy to childhood to adulthood to elders. The very center of it 81:00represents the center of life, that hopefully in our lives, we can stay centered. It's very difficult sometimes to stay centered and balanced, but it should be a goal of ours. As you can see, the circle on the outside of the center, there, goes counterclockwise. If you go to a ceremonial dance, you'll notice that they always dance counterclockwise around the fire or the drum. That's what that keeps in mind. All the work that you see that I try to produce usually has the circles on the inside. The philosophy is that it's not just for the artistic standpoint, but it does have symbolism. The world is round, the moon's round, the sun's round, so everything has a purpose in its roundness.

Little Thunder: This is the outside of...

Daniel: This is called Serpent Signs. The serpent was sometimes a protector of the ancient people, the Mississippian people. This represents the serpent where, maybe, it had gone through the surface and left its design or track. As you can see, the etching represents the earth, the small squares, and then the two movements on the side are kind of flowing. Then, if you saw scales, the points 83:00that come out would represent the scales. This is an old design that's done in my own motif that I really enjoy doing. It's pretty representative of Mississippian culture or Southeastern culture, and it's done in my own motif and my own style.

Little Thunder: That's gorgeous, thank you. Mike, thank you very much for this interview. We're going to close with the wheel going for a minute here.

Daniel: What I'm doing here is just trimming a little bit of the extra clay off. That way I can control the lightness and shape of the pottery after I've thrown it. This is where I use contemporary tools for my work. I'm really at the very finishing stage here.

You hear a lot of potters talk about varnishing their work. I do varnish my work in a form that I hold a piece of wood on the pottery to get it smooth as I'm going across. That way, it makes it easier to put on my colorization and designs. This smoothes it out, gets the base smoothed out. Then I put my signature and my copyright and my deer clan design, and that finishes it for this stage. In the next stage, I'll be turning it back over and loading my brushes and put the color on it. Then, the next stage is cutting the designs in 85:00the work. Then I'll fire it in the gas reduction, high-fire kiln.

Little Thunder: Wow. Well, I really appreciate your time today.

Daniel: You're very welcome. It's been a pleasure.

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