Oral history interview with Gary and Elizabeth Farris

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Sunday, November 27, 2011. I'm in Norman, Oklahoma, at the Farris' house. Gary, you're Cherokee. You currently work for the Federal Public Defender's Office here in [Oklahoma City]. Elizabeth, you're Otoe, and you work in retail. I know you both have artistic inclinations. You also started your own gallery several years ago in Norman, but today I'm here to speak to you as collectors of Native art, who also happen to be Native, themselves. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

E. Farris: Thanks for inviting us to.

Little Thunder: We'll start out with Gary, where you were born and where you grew up.

G. Farris: I was born in Twin Falls, Idaho, and I grew up a little bit here and a little bit there. My dad was in the service, in the Army all my adolescent life. I left home when I graduated from high school in Wurzburg, Germany, and started my own life after that. Went to college at the University of Oklahoma is 1:00where I started.

Little Thunder: Wow, from Germany to Oklahoma.

E. Farris: All by himself. There was nobody else. He had no family in the United States.

Little Thunder: How about you, Elizabeth? Where were you born?

E. Farris: Originally from Tulsa. Wonderful place to be brought up. A lot of art, a lot of Indian happenings, so it was a great place to grow up, really, being Indian.

Little Thunder: Went to public schools there in Tulsa, pretty much?

E. Farris: Public schools, right. Did take art lessons at Philbrook and enjoyed that as a child. It kind of got me interested. I always liked art classes, but it really got me interested in major art, you know, Renaissance art and Baroque and things like that. I'd never experienced that before, so it was great.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

E. Farris: My dad was a petroleum engineer, and my mom was a homemaker. She stayed home and took care of us.

Little Thunder: And your father was obviously in the service.

G. Farris: Yes, career Army. My mother was also a homemaker. She had part-time 2:00jobs from time to time. Well, she sold Tupperware, (Laughter) and enjoyed it and sold more plastic stuff than I've ever seen. I mean, she'd fill a house with it. It was kind of fun to watch her do that.

Little Thunder: What are your earliest memories of seeing Indian art, Gary?

G. Farris: Oh, gosh, since I really wasn't around it too much growing up, it was pretty much after I met Elizabeth, and we started collecting right away. Even before we got married, we started putting things together and had certain things in our apartments, and it just grew from there. I mean, it was insatiable. We just had to keep getting it. It was kind of crazy.

Little Thunder: How about you, Elizabeth? What are your earliest memories of seeing Indian art?

E. Farris: My grandparents' home. They traveled a lot. They went out to the Southwest, so they had beautiful rugs and pots they collected. Of course, my mom 3:00had a few things. I remember Acee Blue Eagle as a child.

Little Thunder: Noticing his paintings?

E. Farris: Noticing that, right. It was wonderful, all the different colors and the mix of things. I enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: That's great. Did either one of you have any extended family members who were artists?

G. Farris: My oldest brother was quite an artist but never developed it, never pursued it, but he could draw just about anything just by looking at it. It's unfortunate that he didn't take advantage of that. That's about the only one I can think of.

E. Farris: In my family, my grandfather--my grandmother was full-blood Otoe, and my grandfather was a British subject. He painted landscapes and still lifes, and I grew up watching him paint and draw, and he taught me some things. It was always fun to watch him work. I know some Indian artists that were kind of 4:00inspired by my grandfather, like Walt Harris. He said he used to watch him paint when he was a young boy. One of my older brothers was an artist, as well, but didn't really pursue it, just kind of played.

Little Thunder: When you say your grandfather was English, he was an English citizen. He wasn't an American citizen.

E. Farris: Yes, he came here as a young man. Matter of fact, my [grand]parents met at Stewart Nevada Indian School. They both taught there and had to take the train to California to get married because it was illegal to marry Indian if you were white in Nevada. So they had to take the train to California to get married. But he was very talented. I have his landscapes in my bedroom.

Little Thunder: You mentioned you had some art experiences in primary and middle school, lessons that you took at Philbrook. Also, in public school, were you 5:00very interested in art?

E. Farris: I like fashion illustration and took all the art. I've done so many color wheels, color charts, which has served me well because I'm a makeup artist now. I use the color charts in what I do now, so it's great. Just use the face as a canvas.

Little Thunder: How about you, Gary? Any interest in art, yourself, when you were younger?

G. Farris: No, not really. When I was older, I worked with my older brother who was a master carpenter, and he taught me a lot of things. I like to do woodwork. I make a lot of cedar boxes for people, and this bookshelf behind me, I made it. I've made a lot of things, and I enjoy doing that a great deal.

Little Thunder: You went to high school in Tulsa?

E. Farris: Yes, Will Rogers.

Little Thunder: You were in Germany for high school?

G. Farris: Wurzburg, Germany, for high school.

Little Thunder: When and how did you meet?

E. Farris: In Tahlequah at Northeastern [State University].

G. Farris: I transferred from the University of Oklahoma. Both my parents were pretty ill at that time, and Tahlequah was much closer to Vian, which is where they were living, than Oklahoma City or Norman. I transferred there to be able to help them as much as I could, and we met while we were both going to school there.

Little Thunder: What were your majors? What were you majoring in, Gary?

G. Farris: My major was biology, qualified me to be unemployed. (Laughter)

E. Farris: I was kind of interested in just liberal arts and parties. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You've already mentioned that when you were dating, one of the places you went, I guess, was art shows?

E. Farris: When we decided to get married, or live together, we started 7:00collecting posters, and we started collecting Indian. We both were kind of interested in our backgrounds, and we pursued that a lot. Tahlequah is a great place to pursue that. We started collecting posters and then prints, and then that moved into originals as soon as we could afford them.

Little Thunder: And are we talking the '70s, here, early '70s?

E. Farris: Seventies, right.

Little Thunder: Of course, that was a great time for Indian activism. Were either of you guys involved in any--

E. Farris: Well, my brother was. We were in an Indian student organization, and that's kind of how we met, right? We were not really activists, but it was around, and it was an exciting time. Really was exciting.

Little Thunder: Right, and art was doing a lot for positive Indian identity.

E. Farris: Absolutely.

Little Thunder: What was the first art show you went to or the first place when 8:00you purchased your first original together?

E. Farris: That would've been a little art show in Tulsa, and it was Walt Harris. He's a distant relative of ours. It was a small peyote piece, and it was something that we could afford, and it was attractive. As students, we just jumped in with two feet, never looked back. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Now was this at a gallery or an art show?

E. Farris: This was at an art show.

Little Thunder: Okay, so you were buying it from Walt.

E. Farris: Right, absolutely.

Little Thunder: How did you make that leap, though? I think you mentioned it was seventy-five dollars. Is that right? That's quite a bit of money for students.

E. Farris: Right. For students it was, and thought about it a lot. "Should we have it?" (Laughs) We knew it was the right thing. After that, we used to go to a lot of galleries and look and look and look. I think our big "A-ha" moment was 9:00when we had seen Bennie Buffalo's Girl on a Horse at a party at someone's home, and then we saw it at the Philbrook at an art show--

Little Thunder: At the Indian Annual?

E. Farris: --at the Indian Annual. Farris was in Alaska. He was working for the Cherokee Nation. He was in Alaska. I started making phone calls. I was curious if it was available and who had it. I found out it was available, and I found out who had it. I called them, and they said, "Yes, you can put it on layaway." (Laughter) Since you were gainfully employed after getting out of school--

G. Farris: She called me and said, "I found the painting." (Laughter) I knew what she was talking about. I knew exactly what she was talking about.

Little Thunder: From the very beginning, were your tastes similar in art?

G. Farris: Yes.

E. Farris: We both would zero in on something. I've never chosen something that 10:00you didn't like. We both like things the same, and it's amazing because our tastes--

G. Farris: Well, it's fortunate. It's not only in art, too. We like old cars. We like old houses. We like old antique furniture. It's very similar tastes.

E. Farris: It was fortunate that we met.

Little Thunder: That's a real blessing, for a couple. (Laughter) Were you immediately drawn to painting more than other media, or did it just depend on the piece?

G. Farris: Mostly easel art, mostly paintings went into our collection. We don't have much of anything else, but we've kind of tinkered with other media, as well. We have some baskets. We have a little pottery, a few rugs. Don't know much about some of the other things, and that's one of the reasons we've stayed away.

E. Farris: That's true. We knew what we liked as far as paintings, but working for Doris [Littrell], she kind of encouraged you to learn. I did learn a lot 11:00from her about rugs and pots, which I did not know before, so I was very hesitant to buy anything I didn't know about. So I did learn a lot when I was working there. That helped us buy what we did buy in the way of rugs and pottery and baskets. I knew jewelry very well before that from my mother. I have always collected Indian jewelry, but the other things, we were a little hesitant until we--I even learned about kachinas from her. I'm not a big kachina person, but it's kind of nice to know, before you buy, what you're looking at.

Little Thunder: This is Doris of Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery. How long had you been collecting before you went to work for Doris? Did you meet her first as a collector?

E. Farris: We met her first as a collector when we were young, very young. She 12:00also allowed us to put things on layaway, which we did do. We worked with her out of state. We had some art shows in North Dakota, and she helped us with that. Then, when we moved back to Oklahoma, I was at loose ends. You had a job with the Indian Affairs Commission, and I did not have a job, so I worked there for a short time. The whole time I worked there, it was like an education. It was great. She encouraged that, and you could ask her anything. The other thing that was great about being there is that you would see some piece come in that was really a museum piece. It was there. You got to actually see it. Of course, it was gone, like, in a couple days, but you got to see pieces that you wouldn't normally get to see, just like if you were at a shop or anything, something that was in your hands, you got to see it. That was an education, really. I really enjoyed that.

Little Thunder: You mentioned you were doing some art shows in North Dakota. 13:00Were you selling art?

E. Farris: We actually were. It was this fundraiser kind of thing for a student organization. She would help us with that, and it was great.

Little Thunder: For your Indian student organization?

E. Farris: Right.

G. Farris: I ran a program in North Dakota called Indians Into Medicine. Basically, we recruited students from the reservations, brought them to campus, got them through their undergraduate work and into medical school, get them trained, and then send them back to the reservation to provide healthcare. These auctions and things that we would have--we had an annual auction up there for Indian art. They never had anything like that before. They have an incredible number of American Indians in North Dakota, but it amazed me they didn't have any shows or--

E. Farris: They didn't have galleries or anything.

G. Farris: Right, nothing, so we came to Doris with an idea, and she said, "Take what you want." I mean, we loaded up a van with thousands of dollars' worth of 14:00art. It was just from our knowledge of her when we were younger.

Little Thunder: And from your position as collectors, it made you think this would be a good fundraiser.

G. Farris: Right, and it was. It was incredible.

E. Farris: It was. It was great. When we came back home, I think we had something on layaway at Doris' until she closed.

G. Farris: Most of our lives. (Laughter)

E. Farris: It became a way of life.

Little Thunder: So the art show would've happened, approximately--

E. Farris: In the early ʼ90s.

G. Farris: I went up there in '86. I think we started in '88. Something like that, wasn't it?

E. Farris: In '89, something.

G. Farris: So four or five years after that, then we did it every year.

Little Thunder: Wow.

G. Farris: It got to be something the community anticipated, and they began to ask, "Well, when is the show going to begin?"

***It was fun.

G. Farris: It was well received, and it raised a lot of money for the program.

Little Thunder: How did that also feed into your collecting, do you think?

E. Farris: Well, we actually got to see--to me, we started seeing younger 15:00artists, different styles. For so long, I think especially you, Farris, liked traditional Indian art. I kind of branched out, and he came along. I don't know. Maybe you liked it, as well. I started looking at more abstract things and different things, and I think that helped our collection grow a little bit just by seeing more things. We just didn't zero in on one thing. It was great.

G. Farris: I still like traditional. (Laughter)

E. Farris: He does. He does, but you've grown so much. It's amazing, really.

G. Farris: Another thing that it did for us, though, and did for the community of North Dakota, basically, was it encouraged artists who had never shown before, who had just maybe painted for themselves, to bring art to the auction, and we began to include that along with the art that we would get from Doris or wherever. Toward the end of that thing, we were getting art from all over the 16:00United States. It was really cool. We'd get some incredible pieces that we would be able to bid on, as well.

E. Farris: It was fun. Then we came home, and I was so glad to come back to Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: That was, like, the mid-'90s, maybe?

E. Farris: That was mid-'90s, yes. Been here since.

Little Thunder: Do you think collecting is primarily an emotional impulse, or is it partly intellectual? What do you think about that act of collecting, when you decide--

G. Farris: For me, it's an emotional response. We buy what we like. If it turns out that it's valuable and will continue to increase its value as we have it, that's a benefit, but it's not one that I think about when I purchase a piece. It's emotional for me.

E. Farris: I think so. I think so. It has to really speak to you, and when it speaks to you, it's something that you want to take home and live with. What I 17:00like is sometimes spending time by myself in the morning, just sitting and enjoying being around some of the pieces. I know your office is the same way. His office is like a little gallery.

G. Farris: I have twenty-two pieces in my office. It's not that big an office. (Laughter) What I like to do here is just sit in a different place when I come in this room because each time you sit in a different place, you get a different view. I mean it's just incredible, and I enjoy it. It's very peaceful.

Little Thunder: You're not just decorating. There's something else happening.

E. Farris: Right. It's not like, "That goes with my couch." We never buy like that. Or "This goes with the rug." No, it's not a decorating thing. It's a piece of art. It's its own entity, and you just let it have a space in your life.

G. Farris: We're enriched by it.

E. Farris: Right, very much so, and our children are collectors now, which is great.

Little Thunder: I was going to ask that. That's great. You're passing that on.

G. Farris: In our den, there's a big coffee table, and there's a drawer in it. There's a list in that drawer. Every Christmas when the kids come home, they get to pick a piece from our collection and add it to their list that they get to have when we're--

E. Farris: If we still have the piece. (Laughter)

G. Farris: It's kind of interesting to watch that grow and watch how their tastes--

E. Farris: How they choose.

Little Thunder: How their tastes are evolving. So that's their Christmas wish or tradition.

E. Farris: It's kind of a fun thing, right. The oldest chooses first, and it's interesting to see what they choose.

Little Thunder: Would you say your focus was on living artists, or did it just 19:00kind of depend on the piece?

E. Farris: Depended on the piece. We have both deceased artists and living artists, young and old. That Ishkotin right there is just kind of fun and crazy.

G. Farris: He's a young kid, but he's been showing--

E. Farris: At the Heard since he was fifteen.

G. Farris: --for years.

Little Thunder: What's his tribal affiliation?

E. Farris: He's Navajo [and Chiricahua Apache]. That's way something that [Gary] would've not looked at a few years ago. (Laughter)

G. Farris: I'm not repulsed by it now. (Laughter)

E. Farris: It's exciting.

Little Thunder: You might've already addressed this, but, again, coming from a Native background, how do you think that impacted your collecting, specifically?

E. Farris: Well, color is wonderful. I'll say this quickly. It's no reflection 20:00on her, I don't think. I had a Pendleton coat, and a non-Indian friend who wanted a Pendleton coat. She said, "I wish I could find a Pendleton coat that was all in browns and beiges." I'm like, "Well, then it wouldn't have been a Pendleton. It wouldn't be an Indian blanket. Then it would just be--go to Dillard's!" (Laughter)

For one thing, we embrace color, and we're not afraid of anything. I think some people are a little, "Oh, I don't have room in my house," or, "Where would I put that?" or, "I have one piece on my wall." That would never even enter my mind that we didn't have a place for it. We would just find room for it.

G. Farris: We'll find a place, yes. There's a certain relationship to the pieces that we have, I think just because they're culturally significant to us. We're 21:00both very proud of and involved in our different cultures.

E. Farris: And our clans.

G. Farris: That really shows up. She's buffalo clan, and I'm wolf clan, so you'll see a lot of buffalos and wolves.

Little Thunder: That's a strong theme throughout this household. (Laughs)

E. Farris: Right.

Little Thunder: You mentioned layaway as being important because that enabled you to buy pieces that you wouldn't normally have had access to. What's the frustrating part about layaway?

E. Farris: When we had a gallery, (I will say this) we had a layaway. If you're interested in it and we hear from you every once in a while, great. We never had a layaway that was three months because that doesn't always happen for people. As long as we knew someone was interested, we kept the piece for them. I think with layaway, the way we did it, with people that really kept you on, it kind of made us anxious to get the piece.

G. Farris: That was always there whether or not it took us three months or three years.

E. Farris: For us, it was great if people worked with us. I think, for the most part, most gallery owners will work with you, which is great for young collectors. If they know you want it, it's a wonderful way to build a collection.

G. Farris: The frustrating thing is, of course, not having the piece.

E. Farris: Right. You want to get it as soon as you can.

G. Farris: Sometimes if you get halfway through the payment, they'll give you the piece and you can have it, but most of the time they want their money before you get the piece. I understand that, but that's the frustrating part about it.

E. Farris: I've worked with women before. They'll sit around and talk about redoing, repainting, or re-carpeting, which is great, but I always think of a collection as a movable feast, you know, Hemingway. If we lived here, great. If we lived someplace else, we would just take it all with us, and it'd be 23:00wonderful wherever we were. That's what I like. We take what we love, and it would be our home wherever it was. I don't care what the wall color is or the carpet or whatever.

G. Farris: However, we usually get to this, though. (Laughter)

E. Farris: We usually get to basic white.

Little Thunder: Shows off those colors.

G. Farris: It does.

Little Thunder: So you will move pieces if a new piece comes in. Does that involve some juggling or rethinking?

G. Farris: Sometimes, but we do hang much like a gallery does, from floor to ceiling. If we find another piece, it might just go there in that room.

E. Farris: The reason there's a hole there is that some of that is at William and Mary [College] now. We have some holes because of that.

G. Farris: We have--what did they borrow? Five pieces?

E. Farris: Five. Five pieces.

Little Thunder: Five pieces that are touring. You want to tell a little bit how that came about?

G. Farris: There was a Native American conference in Norman a couple of years ago, and a representative from William and Mary College was here, and she came to our gallery. She just kept coming back. The conference was five days, and she was there at least once a day. She ultimately bought a very, very nice piece from us by Kelly Haney. As soon as they heard, or as soon as this plan to have a show at William and Mary began to develop, she contacted us, and she asked if she could borrow some of our pieces. She was very specific about what she had seen. Then we told her some of the other things that were available. She said, "Oh, I'd like that, too," so we wound up lending them five pieces.

Little Thunder: These are Kiowa pieces. Is that right? I can't remember. Are they more traditional?

E. Farris: They're more traditional. They were doing a show that did speak to that. They were Kiowa Five and also Acee Blue Eagle. It was kind of the Kiowa 25:00school. The Kiowa Five and the Bacone School is what they were concentrating on. I'm sure, a lovely show. I wish I could've gone out to Virginia to see it.

Little Thunder: When you purchased multiple pieces from the same artist, when you began to do that, was the bar a little bit higher for you in terms of how the piece had to speak to you, or were you conscious of any "This is representative of this artist, therefore I need something that's unusual for them"? How did you think about that?

E. Farris: I think it's all just gut feeling. We like it, or we don't like it. That being said, like with Mirac Creepingbear, we have a very early piece, and we have one (that's one of the pieces we're going to talk about, I think) of his 26:00later pieces. Then we have a piece that is just wonderful, and it's very touching. It's nice to see them grow, and it's nice if you can find early pieces like the Virginia Stroud we have in the hallway. It's an early piece, and it shows her growth and her moving into what she does now.

I don't think we were like, "Oh, we need early pieces, and then we need a later piece." It's just we see it, we like it, and it happens to be an earlier piece, or it happens to be a later piece of the same artist. Their style evolved, and we were right along with them. Like Merlin's [Little Thunder], when we see a piece of his, if it speaks to us, we just--

G. Farris: I don't know if you've heard of that artist or not. (Laughter) We have several of his, and they're all incredible. We like them because of what they are, not because they go with something else or it's a different period in 27:00his painting. They just speak to us. You'll have to tell him if you ever meet him. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Right. You mentioned that Philbrook Annual was one show you faithfully attended for several years. What was that like? I guess that was towards the end, maybe.

E. Farris: Right. It was very exciting. We saw some artists there that I didn't know about, so that was exciting.

G. Farris: That was the fun part.

E. Farris: It was very new, and you could see where a lot of young artists were going. Before that, we really had been kind of traditional, and we like traditional things, anywhere from the Kiowa Five and that whole--and we just started really looking at things differently. It's interesting, and it's fun to 28:00see the political statements that young artists put in things. It really, I think, opens your mind.

Little Thunder: What was one especially memorable encounter you had at the Annual with an artist or--

G. Farris: Seeing the Bennie Buffalo piece.

E. Farris: I think that was one, seeing that piece and knowing that we--

Little Thunder: That piece you'd been tracking. (Laughs)

G. Farris: We had, and it's so weird that it just continued to pop [up].

E. Farris: It was there, and it was like it needed to come with us.

G. Farris: We thought, "Okay, we have to have that piece."

E. Farris: When we were there, it was after the opening, so there were no artists there. We were there on a Sunday afternoon. We were living in Tahlequah at the time, and we were visiting Tulsa, my parents, and decided to go for the show. Philbrook's wonderful, anyway, and the show was very exciting. I don't know. It was speaking to us, and we hunted it down.

Little Thunder: I know you have attended Red Earth Indian Arts Festival faithfully, too. Was there any competitive bidding for any those pieces? As collectors, have you ever engaged in that?

E. Farris: At an auction? Yes, we have. A couple of different auctions, auctions that come here in Oklahoma City. We have bid for a lot of things. It can be very interesting. I found out recently--I was at a party, and I had a lady say, "You know, I bid against you at an auction. I don't know anything about the artist, but I won because I knew you were bidding, and I wanted the piece that you were bidding on. But I don't know anything about the artist." I said, "You don't know anything about the artist?" She said, "Yes, his name starts with a P," and she said it was a horse drawing. I said, "Pahsetopah? You bid on the Pahsetopah?" 30:00(Laughter) Anyway, it was funny, but she got it.

Little Thunder: Not good information for you to hear.

E. Farris: No. So I thought, "Hmm, I'm going to have to start having somebody else bid for me." It was so funny. She said, "I bid, and I won it." I said, "Well, good, it's a good piece." That can be interesting. I don't know. It's a lesson learned.

Little Thunder: How did you research your artists, or did you?

E. Farris: The Pahsetopah I wanted was from being in Tulsa and that whole school. There's a whole different kind of thing there than there is here. It's all great. I think we just like the colors and the style and the piece, and it doesn't really matter.

Little Thunder: You don't have to know a lot about the artist?

G. Farris: No, but we find out after we buy the piece.

E. Farris: After we see the piece, we're like, "Who is this person?" Then we start researching.

G. Farris: We purchased several David Williams pieces. At the time, he was the only one we had multiples of. We were trying to buy different pieces from different artists, and then we met him while we were there. That does make a little bit of difference, I've found, when you know the artist. He was such a nice man. He sang, and he taught, and he was an artist and a sculptor. He was just an incredible person, actually.

E. Farris: Kind of like Doc Tate, you know, they're charming, charming people.

G. Farris: So we enjoyed his pieces even more, I guess, if that's possible.

E. Farris: We would find something we liked, and then we would research the artist, but it's nice to meet the artist. If they happen to be at an opening, that's just a double pleasure because you're seeing the piece and meeting the artist and finding out about them. I think it does make a big difference whether 32:00it's Indian art or Western art. We tend to have one or two pieces of Western art but very little because we really have more of an affinity for Indian art just because of our background. However, you, in your office, have a little bit of Western, like Bev Doolittle, just because it's a fun thing.

G. Farris: Well, it's Western, but it has an Indian image. It's interesting. Are you familiar with Bev Doolittle?

Little Thunder: Yes.

G. Farris: I was just intrigued by it, so I have two of them.

Little Thunder: Hidden images.

E. Farris: I think people come in his office, it's a game like Where's Waldo?

Little Thunder: How do you think your tastes in collecting have changed over the years? You've kind of addressed this a little.

E. Farris: We've definitely gone from very, very traditional to very, very 33:00abstract. I don't know exactly how--when we see a piece, we just like it. It just speaks to us. It's not like, "We're looking for an abstract today." It just happens that we like it. We still find traditional that we like, often.

G. Farris: Because we collect--well, we're interested in deceased artists. Most of those were traditional artists. We just like them. To this day, that's how we choose a piece. We have to like it, and we like it usually immediately. If something doesn't grow on me, particularly, if I don't like it at the beginning, I'm not going to like it tomorrow.

E. Farris: It's like broccoli.

G. Farris: Right. (Laughter) If I don't like it in the beginning, I'm not going to like it, and I just move on. That's how we continue to choose our pieces.

E. Farris: It has to hit us. We pretty much see something, and if we're not in 34:00the same place, we'll say, "Did you see that--" "Yes, I saw it!" It's fortunate that we both usually like the same pieces, so that's great.

Little Thunder: What was the one purchase that you felt was sort of a lucky turn of circumstances?

G. Farris: One of them was when we were living in Tonkawa. Heard a knock on the door, and this guy came to the door. Later found out his name was Lyle James. He's an artist. He said, "I heard you buy Indian art." I said, "Well, yes, we do." He had a couple pieces he wanted to sell. I guess he was hitting on hard times, and they were very reasonable prices, so we bought them. That, when it just comes to you, I think is incredible. I like that, although we like to do 35:00the search, as well. That sort of fell in our laps, and we just love the piece.

E. Farris: I like to go to auctions when someone's not watching what I'm bidding on. (Laughter) I find a piece that someone has overlooked, and it's a fairly important piece. That happened to me, I don't know, I guess a year or so ago. I found a really great [Stephen] Mopope that I thought, "Well, surely somebody is going to bid against me on this." They did to a point, and I was stunned when I was able to get it because the colors were incredible. I was very fortunate to get it, but I was also very surprised. I was looking around like, "Is this real?" So, sometimes, that to me is --

G. Farris: It's exciting.

E. Farris: Yes, it's very exciting.

G. Farris: We got a Fred Beaver like that, too. Nobody bid on it, and I thought, "Oh, my God!"

E. Farris: Those are fun things.

Little Thunder: Have you done most of your collecting in-state?

E. Farris: I would say in-state.

G. Farris: Mostly here, but everywhere we've gone we like to have a piece, at least a piece, from that area, too.

E. Farris: Like North Carolina, we have something from North Carolina. We encourage people to think of Oklahoma as a wonderful wealth of artists. I have people all the time say, "I went to Santa Fe, and I bought this." This is better than Santa Fe. People that live here show there. I said, "You could buy it here." It's like, "Shop locally, please. Support your artists here. They're from here." I don't know. It's kind of a pet peeve we have that people feel like they have to say, "I went to Santa Fe." Oklahoma, to me, is better.

G. Farris: Because it's everywhere. It's not just in Santa Fe. It's in Tulsa. It's in Oklahoma City. It's in Tahlequah. It's everywhere. They just haven't 37:00taken advantage of it, and I don't know what the deal is. Status, I guess.

Little Thunder: You did mention, and I see a couple of sculptural pieces here and there, you were attracted to wall art from the beginning, but eventually you did pick up a little bit on sculpture. What were some considerations with the stone sculpture or wood sculpture?

E. Farris: As soon as we saw some of the pieces, like this Sherman [Chaddlesone], I just had to have it.

Little Thunder: Who is also a painter.E. Farris: Right, he's also a painter. Had to have it. We both agreed we needed it, so we put that on layaway. That's another Doris purchase. Most of them are that way: we just see something that we really like. We do have some sculpture we like. Some people really, really love sculpture, and they have a lot of it. We have a nice, small collection of that, 38:00but I wouldn't say we are heavy-handed in sculpture. It just has to speak to you.

G. Farris: Again, after we bought the piece, we did a little research on Sherman. Found out that Allan Houser had pretty much named him to be his replacement in the sculpture world, which was kind of cool, but we didn't give that any consideration. We saw this piece, and it's incredible, and we said, "We've got to have that," and later found out it was Sherman's.

E. Farris: And Allie, his wife--

G. Farris: Yes, she's wonderful, too.

E. Farris: --we have some of her smaller pieces. It's exciting. What they can bring out of a piece of alabaster and marble, it's just amazing.

Little Thunder: In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, requiring that artists have proof of enrollment or be certified by their tribes. Did you notice the way that impacted galleries or artists? Did it impact your collecting?

E. Farris: It's important for us to have American Indian artists in our collection. I wouldn't say, "Oh, I wouldn't have that because they're not--" I wouldn't take something out of our collection that we love, but I wouldn't seek out artists who aren't. We would seek artists who are Indian and who are affiliated with the tribe. It's important, I think.

G. Farris: It is important.

E. Farris: It's something that's very important to us. That being said, we have a couple pieces by people who are not affiliated and people who don't have their card, but not very much. Most of it was when we were young, and it's more sentimental.

Little Thunder: Do you continue to collect at the same pace? Have you slowed down a little?

E. Farris: No.

G. Farris: We haven't slowed down. (Laughter) That's pretty incredible, too. I When are we going to stop? But we can't.

Little Thunder: Would you say once a month, maybe, you make a trip to see what's out there?

G. Farris: We're always looking.

E. Farris: Always, we never really stop. Just always looking. Whether it be in galleries or on the internet, private, we just always look. We are always looking.

G. Farris: People still call us from time to time, much like that kid that came by the house.

E. Farris: Right, exactly.

G. Farris: "We have these pieces. Are you interested in buying?" We're kind of drawn into it if we don't do it ourselves.

Little Thunder: People find you. You opened a gallery, yourselves, a few years ago. That has been sometimes a path that collectors take, not often, but that's 41:00often the next step. What do you think appeals to collectors about opening a gallery?

E. Farris: I think the camaraderie, being around artists, being around the art. It was wonderful. One of the reasons we did temporarily close is our son is in school. When he finishes, hopefully we'll reopen again. We still have a very small gallery downtown that is by appointment, but no one is there every day. It's by appointment, so we still are there. When we go down there, I don't know, I love it. It's exciting because [of] a lot of young, young, interesting artists.

We have people call us all the time. The reason we kept the little gallery downtown is we kept having people come to the house, "Do you have-- Can we see--" That got to be kind of freaky, not uncomfortable, but it was better to 42:00say, "Yes, we can meet you. We have a small gallery downtown." It's in a law firm, so it works out well for us. We are continuing. I think collectors do that because they live to be around it. However, I did learn something from Doris in that you do have to decide whether you want to be a dealer or a collector, and I will say she was--

G. Farris: She was 100 percent dealer.

E. Farris: She was 100 percent dealer. She could part with something. You do have to make that decision. I did that one time. I had a lovely piece of jewelry that my husband had given me, and somebody was very interested in this certain thing, and I said, "I'll find one for you." Well, that being said, I couldn't find that kind of piece for them, a sugilite. I looked and looked and looked. So I had to sell her my piece because I told her I was going to get it. You have to make that decision. Are you going to be a collector or are you going to be-- I 43:00did it, and it does sting a little. It makes you stronger.

G. Farris: When we opened, most of the inventory was from our collection. Then the longer we were open, the more we were able to buy from other collections or other artists or--

E. Farris: We had our collection which was mainly either established artists or deceased artists, and we had all these wonderful young artists. That was just so great. They're energetic and interesting and fun. We did the live paints. The live paints were just the most wonderful things, to see these guys knock out a canvas in two hours. It was great. They were just young, fun people, and to see their work done, it was exciting. That's really what I think I enjoyed the most about having a gallery is watching the new guys come in and see what they have 44:00to do. It was great. We just keep collecting.

Little Thunder: What do you see as the future for Native art?

E. Farris: Exciting. They're saying a lot with their work. They're saying a lot of interesting political things. They're doing some wonderful things, and they're doing affordable, fun things I would've not thought about. They're doing photography with art. They're doing decoupage. They're doing just really interesting things. They're making things affordable for people who want to start collecting, which I love.

G. Farris: And at the same time, they're still recording our culture, and I find that exciting and necessary. I'm glad they're still doing that.

E. Farris: They are, and they're doing a wonderful job. It's wonderful. I think being around artists, it's one of the most exciting, interesting things. It makes you feel alive. It really does.

Little Thunder: What kind of advice would you give to another collector of Native art?

G. Farris: Buy original and buy large.

E. Farris: Don't bid against me. (Laughter) Buy original, buy large, and don't bid against me.

G. Farris: That was Doris' mantra.

E. Farris: That was Doris'. Buy original, buy large, unless it's a miniature.

G. Farris: Unless it's a miniature. We don't have all originals. Most of them are. Sometimes if I like an image and someone already has the original and there are reproductions available, I'll buy the reproduction because I am interested in the image. You can't always have the original, and for us it's a good thing 46:00because we'd be in the poor house, even more so than we are.

E. Farris: The other thing I would advise is not to worry about whether you have space on your walls for something. I've heard that so many times. I can't even understand that. When someone says, "I don't have any space for that," I can't even imagine that. There's always a place for something. You can find a home for it, believe me.

G. Farris: And if not, we'll do it for you.

E. Farris: Yes, we'll find a place for you. We'll help you hang.

Little Thunder: If you were asked to help someone build a collection, is there anything you would add to what you've said?

E. Farris: I'd just jump in with two feet and do it. You can talk about it, you can want things, but if you don't just do it--you don't want to think, "I should 47:00have. I could have. I wish--" You have to do it. You just have to. You don't want to regret anything.

G. Farris: No, and I think you have to buy, mostly. Don't worry if it's going to appreciate in value or that it's going to depreciate. If you like it, that's what is important, to me anyway. If you don't like it, why would you buy it, anyway? I find people doing that because they think it's going to appreciate in value and then they can sell it at a profit. I never think of that. Just buy with your heart, buy with your emotions.

E. Farris: And don't think about where you're going to put it. It'll find a place.

Little Thunder: We're going to look at a couple of your pieces here in a minute. Is there anything we've forgotten to talk about or anything you'd like to add?

G. Farris: I don't think so.

E. Farris: No, I think we've probably just said it.

Little Thunder: Let's take a look at what you've got here. This is a Mirac Creepingbear piece.

E. Farris: This is a piece we got from Doris, Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery.

G. Farris: It's called Yellow Horse.

E. Farris: The colors are magnificent. Everything about it is just magical. As soon as we saw it, we knew we had to have it. She was kind enough to work with us on this. I understand it's one of the last pieces that he did. It was in a group of things he did toward the end of his life, so we're fortunate to have it.

Little Thunder: A real celebration when you brought this home.

E. Farris: Very much so. Very much so.

G. Farris: Except our youngest child because that was his college education. (Laughter) No, everybody loves that piece.

E. Farris: This is David Williams, and it's one of our favorites. We knew of David when we were young students and bought a piece of his as soon as we could afford to. We tracked this piece down because we liked it. We bought it from a collector who had several of David's pieces, and she was kind enough to let us put it in layaway. We've always admired the Kiowa Fancy Dancer and love it. 49:00Holds a special place in our hearts. David is--what is he? Tonkawa, Kiowa, and Apache, and a great guy.

Okay, this is the Bennie Buffalo that was our "A-ha" moment when we realized that, yes, you can put things on layaway. We saw it at Philbrook at a show. We found it; we put it on layaway. We couldn't afford it, but some things you can't put a price on.

G. Farris: Never stopped us before.

E. Farris: Right, right. We became forever indebted to galleries after this one.

Little Thunder: And Ben was Cheyenne. That's just gorgeous.

E. Farris: Cheyenne, yes. Isn't it beautiful? It's exciting to be around every day. This is on our daughter's list. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: A good one to put. Well, Elizabeth and Gary, thank you so much.

E. Farris: Oh, our pleasure.

G. Farris: It's been our pleasure.

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