Oral history interview with Johnny Moore Tiger, Jr.

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Wednesday, May 25, and I'm here with Johnny Tiger at his house. Johnny, you've been entering art competitions, winning awards since the late 1960s, and you come from an extended family of artists. You've witnessed some major changes in Indian art over the years. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Tiger: I was born in Tahlequah, Oklahoma, and we lived down in Eufaula. I was born at Hastings and grew up down in Eufaula until about junior high. We had to move. I didn't want to move. I liked it down there. We moved up here to Muskogee in 1954 or something like that. No, '52 or '53.

Little Thunder: What's your first memory of seeing art around you?

Tiger: Well, I went to Bacone [College]. Dick West was teaching out there, then. I saw like the real Indian art, his style. I took a couple years out there, took a course of sculpture. I think that was about it. From there, I was kind of on my own.

Little Thunder: At your folks' house, do you remember the first time you did any drawing or did any art?

Tiger: Yes, but I don't know what happened to them.

Little Thunder: Were you able to find materials you could draw with at your folks' house?

Tiger: Yes, I could get that material all the time. I'd either buy it, or if 2:00something was laying around, I'd draw on it, cardboard.

Little Thunder: I imagine Jerome probably did the same. Did your parents pay attention to you guys' drawings?

Tiger: Not too much. Usually, young, we was outside playing all the time. We'd be playing sports or something with a bunch of the other guys outside when we was young, say, grade school and junior high. We'd all go meet each other, or see each at the church house, Indian church. We'd get kind of restless in church and take off outside and play. (Laughter) They'd try to track us down and get us in church.

Little Thunder: You mentioned you didn't want to move from Eufaula. You liked Eufaula.

Tiger: Yes, see, my granny and gramp raised me, mostly, you might say. I was kind of like their pet, so I didn't want to leave there. Especially going to Muskogee, I didn't like it, but I had to finally get used to it. I never got used to it, but you have to go along the way.

Little Thunder: Your grandpa was Coleman Lewis. He was a preacher. You remember spending time with him as a child?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: What do you remember doing?

Tiger: First thing, he used to always get up and go to church early in the morning on Sunday. Granny would be in there cooking by five thirty, six o'clock, and I made sure I was up. I'd go there, eat, and I'd want to go with them 4:00because I wanted to drive. He was the first one that taught me how to drive in his old pickup. It was a 1940 International. I remember that stick in the floor, floor shift, the old type. I used to drive for him early in the morning, and he'd be going to preach at church.

Tiger: Supposedly, in those days, you're not supposed to--I don't know why they say all that, but he used to be a stomp dance leader, a long time ago. Everyone used to say how good he was. I mean, they all talked about it. He was good. Even when he retired out of that stomp dancing and stuff to--he became a Christian. 5:00Granny was a Christian, anyway, and she didn't want him to go. He knew all that, but he finally became a Christian. They even offered him, back then, fifty dollars if he'd lead one more time. That's a lot of money back in 1920s. He didn't do it. He just finally went into religion and stuff. Then he became a real good preacher.

Little Thunder: He spoke Muscogee, of course.

Tiger: Yes, he knew all the Creek language.

Little Thunder: I remember you telling a story that you all had to sneak out to stomp dances because you had been raised church-way.

Tiger: Well, Mom didn't like us to go because she was Christian. It was mainly Christian-type, but we'd go to stomp dances, anyway. We had a car. I had a car, 6:00so we'd get a bunch of guys in there and go. One, where we used to live at, the church grounds in Eufaula you could see over the horizon, that Eufauloce, Eufauloce stomp grounds, but the lake knocked that out. You used to hear it up from the house...

Little Thunder: Oh, that must've been hard on him.

Tiger: --the stomp dancing. Anyway, we'd come back early in the mornings, and he'd always ask us, "Who was there? Who is this? Who is that?" He was still interested in it. He still had it in his blood, I guess. I guess so because I heard about how good he was.

Little Thunder: He did talk to you about a lot of Creek ways and shared stories?

Tiger: Yes. If I didn't stay with him most of my life, I wouldn't have knew all that Creek. Jerome and them, they knew a little bit, but they didn't catch on to what this and that was, maybe not coming to eat or something.

Little Thunder: So both of you were in Muskogee at the secondary school level, or was it high school?

Tiger: I went to school in Muskogee all through junior high, seventh, eighth, and ninth. Then I went back to Eufaula because I was in high school. Let's see. Tenth, eleventh, the first nine weeks, I was wanting a car because I was really interested in cars.

Little Thunder: Plus, you drove so young.

Tiger: Yes. Mom said they'd look for me a job. Dad used to get office supplies in town, and I guess they must've asked around. They said, "Come on down." They got me a job.

Little Thunder: Oh, in an office supply store.

Tiger: Yes, like a delivery boy, put desks together and different things in the back, clean up. I was just an all-around guy, I guess, and delivered orders. I worked there about three years. I got out of school and started out fifty cents an hour. I remember my first dollar bill. I don't know whatever happened to it. 9:00I was going to keep it for life, the first dollar bill I made working. A dollar an hour, that's what it was. I made it up to a dollar an hour. That's nothing compared to nowadays.

Little Thunder: That's right. Were you exposed to any art classes at all at Eufaula?

Tiger: No, you just did it on your own.

Little Thunder: Did you ever sketch while you were working or at home during those days when you had your first job?

Tiger: Yes. Let's see. I got messed up on schedules. When I went back to Muskogee for eleventh grade, they sliced me up and put me in a senior class, and 10:00I couldn't think. It just got my mind off--of course, I had a job, and I could go to work at eleven o'clock. They had this thing called Distributive Education, DE. I took that, so I went to school half a day and worked half a day. Then I went an extra year. I didn't care because I was having fun back then because I had a car, a real sharp one.

Little Thunder: When did you sell your first painting or drawing?

Tiger: First one? I can't even remember that far.

Little Thunder: Do you think you sold anything during high school?

Tiger: No. Usually, back then, "Do you want this?" and you'll give it away. 11:00Later on, I went to Bacone and drew Indian art like Dick West. I don't even know if I sold that.

Little Thunder: Was this while Jerome was at the Art Institute?

Tiger: I'm thinking it was pretty close to that time. He went up to Cleveland. Of course, he always drawed before then. Any time he could sketch and draw, he'd do it.

Little Thunder: What were your first impressions of Dick West? Was he actually your teacher, or was he just there?

Tiger: Yes. He was funny. I liked him.

Little Thunder: How did he get you interested and serious about your work?

Tiger: I just took art, and under him, I just did what he said. I had fun in there, and I thought it was easy.

Little Thunder: Were you doing Plains images when you were--

Tiger: Yes, I did a lot of that, Plains images, feathers and all that. Creeks didn't have all that stuff. They didn't have those kind of clothes you see in them books.

Little Thunder: What kind of research did Dick encourage you guys to do?

Tiger: Well, he was mainly on his Cheyenne types. I kind of went along with that. I don't think I even hardly did any--I might have did a Seminole, but not 13:00really Creeks. Plains Indians had all the feathers, and they're kind of always on the warpath and stuff like that, with horses. I liked it there. Then I went to Chilocco [Indian Agricultural School] and did a few things.

Little Thunder: You were still painting a little bit at Chilocco and doing art?

Tiger: Yes, drawing, painting there. Some guys was there that painted after that. I think there was a guy named Ingram.

Little Thunder: Yes, Jerry Ingram.

Tiger: He was up there.

Little Thunder: Okay. Did you know him?

Tiger: I knew who he was, said hi and stuff. I didn't run with him. Him and who else? Bushyhead. You know Henry Bushyhead? Jerome Bushyhead died. There's a 14:00bunch of others I can't think of right off the bat.

Little Thunder: What was the earliest Indian art show you remember doing?

Tiger: See, I went to the Air Force and come back.

Little Thunder: Oh, I didn't know you went to the Air Force.

Tiger: I was working in a body shop after that because I liked to work on cars and fix them up different. I worked in a body shop. All in between that time, I even worked at Douglas Aircraft. My dad worked up there, and we'd take turns driving. We'd carpool, so I had to get up every morning, go to work, and come back. I didn't have too much time to do anything else. When you come back, you was tired and everything. I got used to that. It was about three years and eight 15:00months, I think. Then I started painting, doing artwork, shows. See, Jerome had died in '67, and they kept telling me I should enter that Five Tribes show. They was just starting out. I think that was the first big one I entered, the Five Tribes.

Little Thunder: Did you do anything there?

Tiger: Yes, I won first.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's great. First at your first show. What was that like?

Tiger: It was pretty good, felt pretty good. I made a little money on it. Not like nowadays, but money was money then. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did your piece sell, as well?

Tiger: I guess the museum bought it. They kept it. They've got it up there 16:00somewhere. I used to enter that every year and other shows around.

Little Thunder: I remember you doing the Trail of Tears show.

Tiger: Yes, I did that, Trail of Tears.

Little Thunder: Did you ever do any of the early mall shows?

Tiger: Malls? The arts and crafts shows, yes. I went to those. They was pretty fun.

Little Thunder: I heard they were. Who were some of the artists that were showing at the same time?

Tiger: Bert Seabourn was always there. Who else? There was a whole gob of them, but I'm just blank right now.

Little Thunder: Did any Indian artists ever give you business tips when you first started out doing shows?

Tiger: Oh, I learned some things from old Antowine Warrior. He went to [Bacone] at the same time I did.

Little Thunder: Okay. Did you guys run together a little bit?

Tiger: Yes, up there at Bacone. That's when we lived in town. I didn't stay on campus. He did. He lived in that dorm. I used to go out there all the time.

Little Thunder: What tips did you pick up from Antowine?

Tiger: Bunch of crazy tips. (Laughter) He was a good artist, though. He showed me a lot of different things. He was good. He kind of stayed the same way, like 18:00Dick West did, same pattern.

Little Thunder: But his work was more realistic, wasn't it?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: It was breaking new ground, a little bit. It wasn't that traditional flat style, as much.

Tiger: He had good ideas. Showed you different ways of mixing paints and stuff, too, Antowine did.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. Was this water-based paint?

Tiger: Yes, like tempera. Dave Williams, too. I liked his stuff because he painted Plains. I could tell Dave Williams' paintings from anybody's with just one glance.

Little Thunder: Wow. What was the trademark for you about his paintings?

Tiger: I just liked his horses. They're just one certain type. We was good old 19:00buddies, too. We ran a long time, quite a while. He lived in Tahlequah for a while. We used to get out and go. He sure could sing good, though, powwow songs. Yes, Dave could sing good.

Little Thunder: You rode, didn't you, quite a bit growing up? You did good horses, and I think Jerome rode horses, too. Sometimes when an artist has been around horses, then they can do them pretty good.

Tiger: Jerome was a member of that roundup club downtown.

Little Thunder: You didn't belong to it?

Tiger: No. I was always busy working or working on cars, them two things. I 20:00mainly liked to fix up cars and customize them different.

Little Thunder: As I'm understanding it, you got more serious about your artwork after Jerome passed away. Who were some of the early galleries when you started having galleries carry your work?

Tiger: I used to take it up to Five Tribes a lot when I first started out. Used to take them up to Philbrook, and sell up there, not the museum part, but the gift shop. Then, where else? I just forget everything. I'll have to write it down or something.

Little Thunder: Did you enter the Philbrook Annual?

Tiger: Yes, I entered there a couple times. Yes, I have.

Little Thunder: I heard from one artist about the "reject room." Did you ever have anything in the reject room? These were well-known artists.

Tiger: I don't think so.

Little Thunder: Sometimes if it was a little bit too out there, style-wise, a little bit too new and nontraditional, they'd put you in the reject room.

Tiger: A regular one was Fred Beaver and all them. I used to like to go to arts and crafts shows, and they'd be there. They already had different motels and stuff. It was a lot of fun. Even with old--what's his name? Sculptor.

Little Thunder: Oh, Willard Stone.

Tiger: Willard Stone. We used to have fun in the later years before he died.

Little Thunder: I understand you were a pretty good marketer, too, in a way because you used to mentor younger artists, and I just heard from Dana how you encouraged the kids to paint. "You're not going out to play unless you get this done for this art competition."

Tiger: Yes, I'd have them painting all the time. Then my problem was I'd have to mat every one of them in the front, not frame them, but mat them, shrink wrap them. It'd take me all night on that. (Laughter) I think sometimes I never made the show because when I brought that, there was a stack like that, going up to the Five Tribes for the kids. I was younger, but it was a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: I also heard that you would help promote not just family but other artists, up and coming artists, if you were going out and selling your work.

Tiger: Yes, I could see who had good talent.

Little Thunder: You would take some of their work with you?

Tiger: Like that Mike Wimmer, he paints up there for the capitol now. He's real good. He don't paint Indian art, but he paints, like, these pictures in the history books.

Little Thunder: Like illustrations?

Tiger: Yes, like a lot of people in this courtroom. He'd figure it just like them. I need to go to the City and look at those. I've seen it in magazines, Oklahoma Today, and all that.

Little Thunder: Is he one that used to travel with you? You used to sell some of his art for him?

Tiger: Yes. Back then, went to different places.

Little Thunder: Did you deal with Nettie Wheeler, too, at all?

Tiger: Jerome did, mostly. After he was gone, I went out there and she bought some. She used to buy them, Nettie. I don't see how she kept her inventory. She'd just set it all under the bed, all in this one room, just piled up. She just had it everywhere. Whew!

Little Thunder: How she kept track of it.

Tiger: Yes, I don't see how they kept in good condition, either.

Little Thunder: You're related to Lee and Edmond Joshua?

Tiger: Yes, they're my dad's--they call them Uncle John. Dad's side is kin to them.

Little Thunder: Did you guys paint together?

Tiger: No, they always lived out west towards Wewoka, Seminole, and around that way.

Little Thunder: But did you show together sometimes?

Tiger: Oh, yes. They'd be at arts and crafts shows.

Little Thunder: That must've been kind of fun.

Tiger: Yes, I liked that part. It was fun going, seeing your friends and everything. Next day, on Sunday, you don't feel so hot. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Let's see. You were involved with Ni-Wo-Di-Hi Gallery for a while in Austin, Texas?

Tiger: About '74, '72, somewhere in there.

Little Thunder: How did you get into Ni-Wo-Di-Hi?

Tiger: This Ted Pearsall, he got Jerome's stuff from Peggy [Tiger], and they 26:00started on their own stuff. That was real successful. Just knocked them all out, so he got some others. I guess later on, Peggy and them thought, "Why should we do this?" It was Peggy's cousin, Molly. So they quit doing that and went on their own without him getting none.

Little Thunder: Without getting a cut?

Tiger: Yes, a big cut. They started doing their own and did that. I got mine after they quit them.

Little Thunder: You started printing with him? Is that what you're saying?

Tiger: Yes, I printed with Ted, them early ones. I started out doing that. I 27:00finally quit them, too, and went on my own about five years or so later.

Little Thunder: Were you with Ni-Wo-Di-Hi before Donald Vann, or was he in the gallery around the same time?

Tiger: I can't remember now. He was there, sometimes. I remember going down and signing prints, and he was there. I got out of it. I didn't stay in it like he did. He did real good, though. He became a good artist.

Little Thunder: How would you describe your style in the early days? Were you 28:00painting in gouache mostly?

Tiger: Yes, gouache. I didn't use too much acrylics. Just tempera, gouache, pen and pencils, graphics. I still haven't used too much acrylics. I don't know why. I should. I think that was one, way back there. (Gestures in the room) I was just tinkering around with it. That was of Chris [Tiger] I did when he was playing football. He was [number] sixty-seven.

Little Thunder: Yes, that's a nice one. Seemed like portraits were a format you liked back then.

Tiger: Yes, I like to do portraits. I like to do faces.

Little Thunder: What do you like about portraits?

Tiger: I just like to do the faces. They say all them faces I do look like me, and I say, "No, no, no. It just looks like me drawing it." (Laughter) I just lay it down. I don't look at nothing on the faces. You can tell it's mine. I don't know why.

Little Thunder: That's one thing I think you and Jerome share is this really fine line, this kind of graphic quality to your work. How would you describe your colors, your palette?

Tiger: Jerome's were like more pastel and looked softer. I did a lot of bright, here and there.

Little Thunder: When did you begin experimenting more with moving away from 30:00Plains images and doing more Creek and Seminole images?

Tiger: I didn't do too much of that. I did if I had to. I don't know. I just stuck to the Plains-type.

Little Thunder: One thing, I guess, is people weren't totally receptive to the idea of buying Creek or Seminole images or Cherokee images then, because they would say, "Well, it doesn't look Indian to us," or whatever. Is that part of the reason you stayed with Plains?

Tiger: Yes, Indian art, I just always think of feathers or horses and stuff like that.

Little Thunder: You like doing the horses and warriors. How did the Indian art 31:00landscape change in the 1980s from the ʼ70s?

Tiger: I don't know. There's been different ways, different artists. They started using this--I don't know what you call it. Not abstract, but pretty close, all that coloring, and wild. They really rave about it out there towards Southwest. I didn't see any good art about that, not to me. I don't know. I guess that's the way old Dave thought that, too. He says, "You call that Indian art?" (Laughs)

Little Thunder: David Williams?

Tiger: Yes. I'm the same way. The Southwest art--I don't know. It just didn't hang with me.

Little Thunder: Didn't grab hold of you. That was big in the mid-'80s. Of course, the pastel colors were a big part of that, too. How about in the 1990s? What were some of the ways in which the Indian art scene changed?

Tiger: Even having prints, I noticed in the years where print selling just kind of went down. I was asking different galleries how come they don't buy much anymore. "Well, they haven't been selling that good." I thought it was just not going out, but not as popular as they was way back in the '70s.

Little Thunder: I guess maybe it was in the'90s when the print market just kind of started drying up. Also, one artist told me that Woody Crumbo had always told him that was a mistake. Crumbo felt it was a mistake for him to print his work because he felt like he then didn't get the prices for his originals. People didn't want to buy originals because they could buy prints, but in the '90s, that kind of reversed itself, seems like.

Tiger: I don't know. They hadn't been buying prints that much.

Little Thunder: But they were important for you early in your career, prints.

Tiger: Yes, they was selling good back then in the '70s, '80s, and '90s.

Little Thunder: What was one of your best out-of-town show memories, going out 34:00of state? What was a good show for you, out of state?

Tiger: You mean, like, selling or just having a good time? (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Yes, well, selling, or having something fun happen.

Tiger: I liked Red Earth.

Little Thunder: Was that a pretty good show?

Tiger: Yes, I sold good over there. Mainly originals.

Little Thunder: Did you do Santa Fe Indian Market at all?

Tiger: Never did do that. I'd go.

Little Thunder: I thought so, and maybe have a show?

Tiger: I don't think I had a show like that, when I was doing them t-shirts in one of those--

Little Thunder: Galleries?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: Do you remember which one it was?

Tiger: It's right off the Plaza, that square. It's kind of on this side and 35:00back. They sell t-shirts and moccasins and different other things like that.

Little Thunder: What was it like when you sold your t-shirts out there?

Tiger: It was good. I sold quite a bit of them. I took my art down there and [David] Tune sold it. They said I could do that. That was fun down there at Santa Fe. I knew a bunch of different ones, and even got to know some people that lived there. We'd go party after that, go somewhere out to eat. It was a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: All the Oklahoma artists hang together?

Tiger: Yes, it's fun. I haven't painted too much here lately, in a long time. I 36:00don't know. Been a long time. Used to have fun at it when Willard was around and Fred Beaver was around. I'd have fun with them.

Little Thunder: Right, a lot of camaraderie. In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, and it required artists to provide proof of tribal enrollment, or be certified by their tribe as an artist of that heritage. Do you remember the impact of that bill on galleries and artists?

Tiger: Well, the real Indians, they'd laugh about it. They'd make some kind of joke about, "Well, do we have to have a paper to show this and that?" I think 37:00they said, "They should see how we look. We don't look like no Estelusti or anything." Why did they do that?

Little Thunder: Well, one of the goals of the legislation was to keep Indian art from being knocked off by people from Japan or China who were making knock-offs of Indian art, Indian pots, and things like that. That was one of the reasons. I was wondering what your reaction was to it, if you thought it had been effective?

Tiger: Some people told me, "John, do you know someone's doing this print of yours?" Even on t-shirts. I had a graphic of two Indians, or three, and faces, 38:00and a buffalo right here, all black and white, different ones. Someone was putting it on t-shirts and then printing them and selling them. I never did catch who it was.

Little Thunder: You never caught who it was? Wow. Was this in the '80s or the '90s?

Tiger: Eighties or seventies, way back there.

Little Thunder: I didn't get to see any of them, but they sound real intriguing. You experimented for a while with some white, maybe it was Conte crayon or just white wash on dark mat board. Do you remember doing a series like that?

Tiger: I used to sell a lot to this certain woman in Sapulpa.

Little Thunder: Was it Indian Territory Gallery?

Tiger: No. Well, I sold to all them galleries up there. They don't like it when you sell if they're in the same town, you know.

Little Thunder: There was kind of a rivalry between gallery owners?

Tiger: There was about three different galleries over in Sapulpa: Mr. Indian, Indian Territory, and that one in Broken Arrow. Remember that? Two Feathers. I used to sell to them up there at Broken Arrow. There was one more, and I can't think of who it was. Oh, Ms. Boone. She'd buy more than all of them put 40:00together, and she'd buy originals. Before she died, I told her about this one buyer up in Pennsylvania. I think she sold a bunch of my originals because she was pretty bad off, going to die, and she was going to pay some of her bills with it. I'm glad she sold it to this man and woman in Hanover, Pennsylvania. She collected pots, real pretty ones. She had Bill Glass', and she had real pretty baskets from people over in Mississippi, around that way, and Texas, 41:00Livingston, Texas. She sold a bunch of that and her collection of quilts. She sold quite a bit. She had over a hundred paintings hanging in her house, of mine.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow! She was big collector of yours.

Tiger: She sold quite a bit of that. She'd pay me what I asked her for. She never ever did say, "Well, how about this and that?" You know how some of them want to jew you down? Anyway, I felt sorry for her because she was going to die. She had cancer or something. She had already sold over ten thousand dollars' 42:00worth of things at one time. She still had more, and she promised to give different ones. She said she was going to give me some, but I never did get any. There was one person that watched out for her and was wanting what she gave in the will to him because he used to mow that lawn and everything, kept it up and stuff. It's where they get to where they said that she didn't have to pay him, but then later on I found out that nurse that took care of her said, "That's not right. She always paid him." She always was going to either hand it to you and give it to you. He took it anyway if she laid it there. It would be there. She 43:00was that nice.

Little Thunder: It was nice of you to give--some artists don't give the names of their collectors to other collectors.

Tiger: Well, this one she knew. I gave her name to them, and they're the ones that got a hold of her. I was just helping Ms. Boone out. She had a lot of artwork of different types.

Little Thunder: Did you have a show at Southern Plains Museum at any point?

Tiger: Anadarko? No, never have.

Little Thunder: I was wondering if you had an opportunity to walk into a place where you saw a lot of your work together, all hanging together, like a retrospective.

Tiger: No.

Little Thunder: Probably her house, I guess. Like walking into a museum.

Tiger: At her house, yes. When you said that white on light blue, I did a lot [for] her. She loved paintings of that type. She bought about every one of them I had like that. I liked them, too. I keep forgetting about doing some more like that.

Little Thunder: I heard they were really effective. It's interesting. Did you have any other collectors that shaped, helped, because you knew they liked particular themes, and that kind of helped you explore that a little more?

Tiger: Well, there's different ones. Women. I don't know about men. A couple 45:00lawyers, I guess. Women, they'd say, "How come you don't do women?" I said, "Oh, I do. When I do one, I'll call you." She was a lady, so I sold her one. She wanted a woman.

Little Thunder: What was the subject matter? Was it a Plains Indian woman or a Muscogee woman?

Tiger: It was a Creek. You know how they wore that dress up to here and a long skirt. It makes them look long, anyway, because they had the belt all the way up there. They got that, you know, how they tie their hair, twirl it around. What do you call that? Then I did this other type for this lawyer. He sure liked it. 46:00You might say it was a real good-looking Indian girl. When I thought of that, I had this good buyer in Georgia. He'd always buy real expensive ones. He's got one of a little girl I did, and I did this other one of that other little girl. They sell pretty good, I guess, because they're gone fast.

Little Thunder: That's good to know because I hadn't seen any of your women pictures.

Tiger: Yes, I forgot about him. I guess he's still living. I don't know. He used 47:00to come here and buy a lot and then go on.

Little Thunder: Would he stop at your place, or he would come to Red Earth?

Tiger: Red Earth, and he would stop by here. If I was going to enter any of them, he'd stop by here first.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay, so he'd get first pick before they went in the show. What's one of the best compliments you've gotten from either a collector or another artist, or something that stands out in your mind? A collector of your work, something that they said about a painting that just kind of stands out for you.

Tiger: Gee, I wouldn't know. There's a lot of them I did, and I just can't remember. I used to really be on the stick, always painting and getting it down 48:00because I was making money on it. I used to get a new car every year or two. Got a car and would go to these shows. I had a Corvette one time and packed them all in that bag in the back seat. Then I'd stay in some motel in Oklahoma City off I-40, hoping no one broke into it. I'd hear things about people breaking into anything, anywhere. I used to go out there and stand on that ledge, looking out at the car.

Little Thunder: Checking on your car and paintings. How many shows did you do, approximately, a year?

Tiger: That Trail of Tears show, the Five Tribes Show, and I used to go up to Red Earth.

Little Thunder: And Denver. Colorado Indian Market, you did that.

Tiger: Yes, I went there. I went there, not too many times, about three or four times. Went to one in Boulder. There's a nice climate there.

Little Thunder: Was that your first time in Colorado?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did any of those landscapes show up in your artwork or any of the--

Tiger: Not really. I was sketching around, just painting around with it. I'd 50:00say, "Wow, that's the way they paint it." I knew how to do that, but I guess I was in the same--like Dick West taught us. Not too much background, just the real thing, like real Indian art. Do you remember, back in those days?

Little Thunder: Focused on the figures, not much foreground and no background. It's been a good style for you.

Tiger: Did Peggy show you that one of Jerome?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Tiger: Donald Vann used to copy off of them all the time. That's why his look like that.

Little Thunder: Oh, is that right? Donald told me about being real influenced 51:00because Jerome mentored him when he was in high school.

Tiger: Yes, when he was about sixteen.

Little Thunder: He felt very close to Jerome. So how important is having a story when you paint? Is it important for it to be kind of like a story, or are you just trying to strike a certain mood?

Tiger: I kind of go by the title.

Little Thunder: Okay. Do you get the title first?

Tiger: I just kind of work them about the same time, thinking a certain title, and I'll think back about a lot of things Grandpa told me. Then I have to think of the wording to go with it. Sometimes that's real good. It gets the buyer to 52:00know exactly what it means or what the painting is.

Little Thunder: Right, it has to be kind of a short-hand summary. So you'll get the idea for the image and the title at the same time?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: What kinds of research do you do?

Tiger: I used to do quite a bit in different books. Here I go again, mostly Plains Indians, you know.

Little Thunder: People would make that point when everybody was doing Plains, that you needed to be sure and research your material.

Tiger: I read on the Seminoles and the Creeks. Seminoles got a lot of good color, all the design. I read on things like that. I don't know. I guess I got 53:00hooked on Dick West's way. I still like to do just what I think. Like that white on blue, I liked doing that. I don't know. I did lots of them when I think about it. Ms. Boone must've liked them, too. (Laughter) No one else hardly seen them, I guess. She just was hung up on them.

Little Thunder: I hope we get to see them at some point. Can you describe your creative process a little bit, like from the time you get an idea? How does that unfold?

Tiger: If I'm supposed to do a certain piece, I'll research some of it, get the idea of the clothing or whatever. Usually, I like to create my own, 54:00creative-like, different. I wouldn't want it to be like anything else. I've still got things in my mind I want to do because I haven't seen nothing with it anywhere else. I still want to do that.

Little Thunder: If it's not a commission, if it's something you can come up with, whatever idea you want, do they come to you listening to music or driving or--

Tiger: Maybe it'll come to me, like, if I see something, it'll spur something. Or I read something.

Little Thunder: And you'll see a picture in your mind?

Tiger: Yes, I can see pictures, images in anything. I like to get Bev Doolittle's paintings. I always look through that, and I'll come up with so many 55:00different images she'll have, places. I do that a lot, even, I guess, before she did because I just did it on my own a long time ago.

Little Thunder: Like spirit faces?

Tiger: Yes, or a little object, something to do with a rock or weeds. There will be something hid, like hidden images. I didn't look at anyone else for that. It just came to my head a long time ago, but I'll see different ones that have those. I liked old Bev Doolittle's. You've seen hers?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Tiger: I like it. It's fun.

Little Thunder: I think she did borrow those ideas from Indian artists, though. (Laughs)

Tiger: No, maybe not.

Little Thunder: Not in the same form, but, as you said, you were kind of experimenting with that, and there were some others. Did you do very much trading of your artwork with other artists?

Tiger: Yes, I used to do a lot of trading at places when [the show was] about to close down. I'd go around different places. We'd make arrangements or something before the show was closed, and they'd say, "We'll do it at the end, okay?" I'd say yes. That's where I used to trade a lot of them. I'd hurry up and make the rounds before the thing was really shutting down, then I'd trade. Even trade people at art shows not like Red Earth, but where they got pottery or different things like that, just like little gadgets someone made, a vase or wood cup.

Little Thunder: What's one of the favorite things you've traded your art for?

Tiger: I don't know. There's so many. (Laughter) I got some cups with different faces on it. I'd have to think on that because I used to trade at every show. I'd trade for jewelry, too, like silver, silver necklace, silver jewelry. What else? Artwork, too. All that.

Little Thunder: You traded with other painters?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: And you got to keep some of your artwork, too?

Tiger: Yes.

Little Thunder: Used to be, those old-timers, they didn't always get to keep anything of their own. In fact it was Ben Harjo who said to me, "I decided I was going to keep some things for me and my family."

Tiger: Like when you're selling? Oh, I haven't kept nothing yet, but-- (Laughter)

Little Thunder: There's a couple pieces Peggy kept of yours.

Tiger: Oh, the ones she has? I painted them a long time ago and gave them to her and said, "Here's you a present."

Little Thunder: So that's how they stayed in the family. (Laughs) Looking back 59:00on your artistic career, what would you say was an important turning point for you?

Tiger: Turning point was, I used to work at Douglas Aircraft. They had a big layoff in '69 on everybody, and I was getting that layoff, too. We kept our seniority up, where they'd pay us for six more months. After that, that's when I really started painting more and selling it then. I said, "Wow, this is pretty easy sales." I'd go to people around Muskogee, and they'd get enough or full of it, and then I'd have to find new people. Sure enough, I did. They set me up 60:00with a show at Five Tribes that first year, and I sold seventy-five paintings.

Little Thunder: That's an amazing body of work. How much time did you have to prepare for it?

Tiger: I don't know. See, I wasn't so intricate in doing things. I just kind of did them fast, painting. I was in a hurry and would just do one. Kept on like that. I sold seventy-five. That was a month show. If I had a new one, I'd take them up there, and they'd put them in. I had most of them at the first.

Little Thunder: That must've been an incredible feeling, that opening night. Were your folks there, too?

Tiger: I think so. I used to tell them to come on over. Sometimes they don't 61:00know when it's on because they didn't get the paper.

Little Thunder: What has been one of the high points of your career? It might be an award, or it might be an experience that you had, some kind of honor, maybe just getting a chance to go a certain place you hadn't been?

Tiger: I used to sell at Port Jefferson, New York, and some other places on the East Coast. This is another pretty good high point. Fred Beaver was there and 62:00that sculptor from Santa Fe. He died. What was his name? He's got one in front of the capitol building.

Little Thunder: It was Allan Houser.

Tiger: Houser. I think it was Houser, yes. He has one up in the state capitol up there. He was there at this show, and we drove all the way out there. Who was with us? Gary White Deer went up there, too, with us. There was just four of us, but that was a real fun show.

Little Thunder: Was it your first time going to New York?

Tiger: This was out in California. It was a big Indian show that they had out there, not too far from LA. Santa Monica? Anyway, Fred Beaver, I think it was his last long run when he was living. All them good artists I had fun with died. 64:00Seemed like artwork wasn't as fun as it used to be when we was younger and full of spunk and had your good old friends there. They're gone now. Like you said a while ago, I traded Tiller Wesley. He died, and I was surprised. And old Burgess [Roye]died. He was with Ni-Wo-Di-Hi for a while. He died, and a lot of them died suddenly.

Little Thunder: They were younger guys, too.

Tiger: And good artists.

Little Thunder: And good artists. What has been one of the low points of your career?

Tiger: What I remember is I had a show--where was it? Kansas City or somewhere on this end of it. Maybe I was in the wrong spot, but it was just me, I think, that had a show. I always remember that. I said, "I never have done this before," I think to the one that put it on. I said, "Can I trade somebody something?" And they wouldn't. I don't know how to put it, but I went to that show and didn't sell nothing. That's the only show I haven't sold one thing, not one. I just felt low down. I thought, "What is this, anyway?" I said, "I never 66:00have gone to a show and didn't sell one thing, anyway." I always will remember that. That's the only show I did and didn't sell nothing. It was up there in Kansas City, I think.

Little Thunder: Did you have to try to sell, coming back? We've done that before, trying to sell after a show.

Tiger: Yes, I have sold like that before, see if I could find somebody.

Little Thunder: I bet that was discouraging. What advice would you give to an aspiring Indian artist these days?

Tiger: I used to just tell them, "Keep that art up. You'll be getting up there the way you paint. You're doing good." Like a neighbor that lives down that road 67:00about a mile. I showed him a few things in art, Indian art. I took him to the museum to look around, and I said, "Here, you need to enter just one show." I think he won some things in there. He's a Cherokee. One bad thing, if he starts drinking, you can't get him to paint or do anything. I heard the sheriff or someone say, "Oh, Marvin, he'll get in jail, and he'll ask for a pen or a pencil or something, and he'll be doing some drawing in there, and it's good!"

He said that he sold some in there before. I said, "That's good, but he should 68:00be painting all the time." I saw some of his, later. He was getting better, real good. He sells them and everything. His mother used to work up at the hospital. She had a lot of those sold to doctors because she'd been a nurse a long time. She'd get a lot of those sold for him. You know what he'd do? Give her the money, and then take some and go out and get drunk with his boys or whoever.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we forgot to cover, Johnny, anything you'd like to add?

Tiger: I was going to say, I wish my grandpa lived at least ten, twenty more years. That'd be too far, but maybe. That'd be good because I try to keep in my 69:00mind what I learned from him. It was good. If he did live longer, I could've knew about more of the medicine side and the stomp dance side, the "good side." They call it that because they'd quit going to church in the summertime and go stomp dancing. Baptists think that's no good. I don't believe that. I told Mom, I said, "Why'd they do that?" Indians, they just had their own ways. These other Baptists come over there and tried to make you all change your ways. You all had your own culture. You don't see them doing that."

My granny lived to be almost ninety. She died in '87, that year I went to London, England. Mom said, "You better go see your grandma before you go because she's not feeling so good." I went down to the hospital one Wednesday night and stayed there until after midnight. She was getting worse because she fell and she was diabetic. She hurt herself. Sometimes she'd come in reality, and then she'd forget who you are. Like that--what's that thing called?

Little Thunder: Kind of like Alzheimer's.

Tiger: Yes, something like that. Whenever we left, I went to get ready and left 71:00out Friday for New York, me and Jamie Reason. He's a Cherokee from New York, Long Island. We went up there, and we was up there the first or second night at these people's house. The phone rang, and I don't know how anyone got that number. Jamie just said, all of a sudden, "It's about your grandma." Sure enough, it was that she had died. Jamie asked me if I was going back, and I said, "I don't know. I don't like to see Granny like that. I just want to remember her how she was. I'll just wait, I guess, until I get home." I didn't 72:00go to the funeral because I was out of the country.

Little Thunder: You were on your way to London for an art show? Was that your first experience out of the country?

Tiger: Yes, out of the country.

Little Thunder: What was your impression?

Tiger: They drive the car on the wrong side of the road! (Laughs) In fact, I sat this way on this side of the road. (Laughter) The streets are so little, them cars come by you just a little ways. I told [name?], "Let's trade seats. I'm afraid one of them cars going to hit us." (Laughter) I got on that side. Little cars and little streets. I don't see how they drive like that.

Little Thunder: Was the show pretty good? Did you have a good turnout?

Tiger: Yes, had a good turnout.

Little Thunder: How many paintings did you have?

Tiger: I had quite a bit, maybe about between twenty and thirty.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's a good number.

Tiger: Boy, those people over there are real interesting. I was over there with a bunch of them, and they was listening to everything I'd say. Jamie was over there laughing at me because I was bullshitting them a lot. (Laughter) They asked, "Do you all have buffalos in your yard?" I said, "Oh, yes. When people get hungry, they just go kill one." Then they'd say, "You all would eat that?" I said, "Mmm-hmm." Jamie over there, just laughing at me. He couldn't believe it. 74:00(Laughter) It was funny. Then later on, I told them I was just BSing them. I said, "We do have buffalos, but they're not in the yard." Told them we went on horses to town. I just said all kinds of stuff. (Laughter) That was fun, just talking to them like that.

Little Thunder: Yes, that's for sure. Where was the show, again? Was it in a museum?

Tiger: London, England, at some institute. Some big place. [Highgate Literary and Scientific Institution]

Little Thunder: Well, let's take a look at a couple of your works that Peggy has, that I'll have you talk about. Do you want to tell us just a little bit about this painting, what you put into it, and what it's about?

Tiger: Posketv, it's the Green Corn Ceremony for the Creeks, Creek-Seminole. It's like any other gathering, a lot of others, but the main ones, they come, like, one day. Friday is for the women, playing stick ball and games. This is like a creation of the Spirit, watching over them.

Always fours, things come in four. The feathers equal that up there. These are two stickball players. Right here are the four different arbors where they sit around the ring, the stomp dance ring. They're usually in the country. They are 76:00in the country, outdoors all the time. This is the sun going down or coming up. You can play that either way.

It shows the stickballs, the sticks, and they had lochas, turtles. That's for the singing of the stomp dances. They use that for the rhythm. The four green corns to show that it's a Green Corn Ceremony.

Little Thunder: That's really a beautiful piece. [Focusing on another painting.]

Tiger: I did that in '04. This is not the Creeks or anything. This is the Plains Indians because you've got the tipis in it from back then, with the camp in the 77:00sky, you might say. The tipis signify that. These Indians, two are looking at the one on the left side like he's the boss. He's the one that knows it all because these are younger bucks. He's the main one. The title of this is Wisdom. He's the one with all the wisdom.

Little Thunder: And this one was done in ʼ06?

Tiger: In '06 or '01.

Little Thunder: Oh, '01. I'm sorry. It's gouache. Is there any chalk in the back?

Tiger: All gouache. I like them little things sometimes I put in, little designs.

Little Thunder: Yes, into the mat board itself. That's really neat. Do you want to tell us about this one?

Tiger: This one, I finally used--the red part is acrylic. The rest that's like 78:00splatter with a tooth brush is a white. Then I paint and use the other white. That's a gouache where the heavy part is, and then you kind of lighten it out.

Little Thunder: Just a little bit of red there at the horizon, like the sun going down. It's called Night Watch? Is that right?

Tiger: Yes, Night Watch, kind of like the night watchman sees over the place.

Little Thunder: That's a beautiful piece. What's this called?

Tiger: Young Medicine Man.

Little Thunder: It's done in what medium?

Tiger: White ink and colored pencils. It's white colored pencil.

Little Thunder: White colored pencil. That's so striking. It was--

Tiger: Two thousand three.

Little Thunder: And there's a little bit of toothbrush splatter, I guess, around the moon on that one, too.

Tiger: Yes, around the moon.

Little Thunder: Well, Johnny, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for talking with us about your art.

Tiger: Okay, thank you.

------- End of interview -------