Oral history interview with Donald Vann

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is April 18, 2011 and I'm interviewing Donald Vann for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're here with Donald in Tahlequah, [and we are also joined by Scott Bernard]. Donald, you're one of the most prominent Indian artists of your time. You've had a long career that shows no signs of slowing down, and you're back in Tahlequah after forty-one years in Texas, I understand.

Vann: That's right. We are looking forward to doing a lot of things here in the area, once we get squared away with our business. When you've just moved back to an area, there's a lot of work to be done. So, that's what we're working on now.

Little Thunder: We're glad to have you back in Oklahoma.

Vann: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Vann: I was born here in Oklahoma, over in Adair County, outside of Stillwell, let's see, back in 1949. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Vann: Well, my father did a lot of labor and jobs. There's so many jobs that he did over time, it's kind of hard to describe [all] he was doing. For thirty-two years that I remember, he was working for the Alabama Charcoal Company in Baron. And then he went on to do other jobs with the tribe, and he retired twenty-five 2:00years ago.

Little Thunder: I understand your grandparents lived close by?

Vann: My grandparents did live just a few hundred yards from where I was brought up. My grandfather was my biggest inspiration growing up. He had a big influence on most of the things I remember, some of the artwork that I do. He had great knowledge of the spiritual world and the medicines. He was a holy man, so he and I spent a lot of time together.

Little Thunder: I understand you also spent time hunting with your grandfather.

Vann: Yes, one of the things that I remember, years later, about growing up in Adair County outside of Stillwell, was that I was very fortunate to have two sets of grandparents, which a lot of us usually do, and they were both a big part of my growing up. On my father's side, his name was White Vann, and he was more into the mountains and hunting. He was the one that was a big influence in 4:00being out there in the woods and the wilderness. So, a lot of the things that I know about that general area is due to my grandfather on my father's side.

Vann: My grandfather on my mother's side was a holy man, [what they called] Raven Mockers. He was always healing people. I say, "Raven Mockers" [because] he didn't hide that he was. That's another thing that I'd like to talk about, Raven Mockers. People who never really grew up with that knowledge--it's just one of 5:00the things that they learned from books or people talking about it. Raven Mockers were not all that bad. A lot of things that are written about Raven Mockers are false. The people who wrote these books did not grow up around them. I do not remember one person that he ever harmed. He was always doing good medicine for people. I can talk in great depth about that maybe a little bit later.

Little Thunder: What are your first memories of drawing or painting?

Vann: Well, the first time that I remember getting paid for anything that I did was back when I was in the fifth grade. (Laughs) Lucille Starr, who was my first, second, and third grade school teacher, had me do religious drawings for a project. I forgot exactly what it was about. She paid me seventy-five cents, and I thought that was a lot of money back in those days. So, that kind of got me kind of interested, "Well, if I can get seventy-five cents for these drawings, maybe I can do something else and get more money out of it." But that 7:00was not until much later. So, that kind of put the hook in me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I understand you had to make your own painting supplies when you started out.

Vann: Yes, I did, because back in those days, finance was very, very limited. Whatever finance the parents made went to raising the family. There was nothing available to buy professional equipment. So, actually, I imitated a lot of the paintbrushes that I'd seen a lot of people using or used. I would clip off the little hair on the tip of dogs' tails--they're kind of pointed. (Laughter) And I 8:00would tie them with a rubber band or twine onto a stick to make a paint brush. I melted crayons for paint. Of course, they got hard real quick, too. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's very creative. Was one of the pluses of elementary school that you had access to supplies?

Vann: At school I did, but a lot of times back in those days, they did not want you to take anything away from the school. So, sometimes I actually stole a few things just so I could--

Little Thunder: Experiment--

Vann: Nobody ever missed them anyway.

Little Thunder: Did they offer art classes at the elementary level?

Vann: The only art classes, if you will, were when I got into the third and 9:00fourth and fifth grades. There was a lady whose last name was Catron from Vian. Shirley Catron, and she had been educated in art at a university. Friday everybody looked forward to, [because that] was the afternoon where everybody was going to do art of their choice. She was very instructive, very good about color and material. Whatever the school provided is what we used for art back in 10:00those days. She was one of the most beautiful ladies I've ever seen who was a teacher. (Laughter) She really enjoyed what I did. She paid especially close attention to what I was doing because she said that I was much further ahead in that area than any other students were, even though I didn't do well in all three grades, the third, fourth, and fifth. (Laughs) But she said that I did very well in the art area, so I made straight A's. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's wonderful to have that kind of support and encouragement. What kinds of images did you create in your free art time?

Vann: Let's see, the Beatles were starting to come in back in those days. So, I 11:00did a lot of drawing of the Beatles. Also cars and different kinds of animals like horses. Even though horses were kind of a premium back in those days--not everybody had them--I was lucky enough to be able to grow up in a home where my grandfather had horses, so I knew and studied about the anatomy. But cars, not everybody had cars, so I had to guess at that. (Laughter) The Beatles, you saw them on TV a lot, so I knew what they looked like. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You spoke Cherokee at home?

Vann: Cherokee was my first language growing up. I didn't learn to speak English until I was like five, six, maybe seven years old. That was one of the hard 12:00things about being in a public school. A lot of times, we were punished for speaking Cherokee in class. It's just one of those things that reminds me, this was only just a few years ago in time. But we were allowed to speak Cherokee out in recess time, out on the grounds. I remember several of my cousins getting whipped. Even I got a little bit of discipline, which was very traumatic to you when you're young like that.

Little Thunder: Did you have any extended family, uncles or anybody, who painted?

Vann: Actually, none of my uncles were in that area, but I remember a distant relative who was always doing some drawings. His name was Charles Leo Vann, from Pryor. Every once in a while, he would come over. Of course, he was a lot older than I at the time and already well developed in his talent, and I admired a lot what he did. Today, you can see some of his work around Pryor, Salina.

Little Thunder: Was that maybe your first example of Indian art that you saw?

Vann: Well, that was my first example of something that a developed artist did that was quality work and that really, really impressed me. And years later, it 14:00was an honor to meet an upcoming artist from Muskogee, Oklahoma. His name was Jerome Tiger. He and his agent, Nettie Wheeler, had a big impact on my development to the point where I am today. Jerome was probably one of the biggest, most important influences.

Little Thunder: That's interesting because you both have that same love of anatomy, the rendering of the human body in this very beautiful way. How did you meet Jerome the first time?

Vann: Well, it was one of those things where a young kid my age in grade school 15:00had a hard time being in class. (Laughs) We walked several miles to school back in those days. By choice, actually. Later on, we got a regular school bus to ride in, but before then, it was kind of like a farm truck that used to come and pick us up. But since school was not that far, we walked to school. Sometimes we got there. (Laughter) Most of the time we didn't. So, social workers were out to help children my age, to give more direction. A lot of programs [were] coming up 16:00at that time, John F. Kennedy's time--he started a lot of tech schools. There was, I think, about three at the time. If I'm wrong, correct me, but they were Job Corps centers.

This social worker came over to the house and said that I was reported as being a problem student. "There's an option that you can take, either Job Corps or, I know that you have this talent, and I am acquainted [with] this lady in Muskogee 17:00that could help you." So, she took me over to Muskogee to the Thunderbird Gift Shop. I met Nettie Jane Wheeler, and she said, "This is what I'm doing with Jerome Tiger."

I'd never heard of the name before until then. And she named other known artists of those times, and before. Acee Blue Eagle and Paul Pahsetopah. [I'd] never heard of them. She said, "This is what I'm helping them do, and I'd like to develop you. Jerome is willing to meet you and help you with it, too." So, we did. Jerome was one of the most fantastic persons that I had ever met. Some of 18:00the things that he was doing, I was just in awe. I thought he was like a God. (Laughter) Even though Jerome was Creek, he was not Cherokee, we both resonated extremely well. He said, "You have something that I see you can develop." He told me, "You have to do it your own way. Don't copy me." But everybody did at that time. (Laughs) That went over very well for a couple of seasons. Then I was still having that problem in school, so I looked at Job Corps.

Little Thunder: Had you been meeting with Jerome over at Nettie's or going over there once a week?

Vann: Yes. I did go on to Job Corps. I went up to Anaconda, Montana. I was there 19:00for, I want to say, two months? Maybe three. Whatever you wanted to learn, they taught you. I learned heavy equipment and maintenance and earned a GED at the time. Then I came back from Job Corps and started right back up with Nettie and Jerome. And right after that, Jerome passed away--

Little Thunder: It must have been hard on you.

Vann: Yes, very devastating to me because I admired him so much. Today, his memory has a very big impact on me.

Little Thunder: Were you about seventeen or sixteen?

Vann: No, no, actually, I was going on fifteen. So, I went back to high school even though I had a GED. Technically, I graduated in '68, but I had to take half a year over again to graduate. By that time, I was working full-time as a professional artist.

Little Thunder: Showing mainly in Nettie's gallery?

Vann: Nettie Wheeler was still my agent at that time, and she had full control of my work. She was selling my artwork all over the country, and we were doing shows. I think it was in '66 or '67. The Five Civilized Tribes Museum art 21:00show--that was the first time they had [it], I believe. Johnny Tiger and Virginia Stroud, we were the First Place winners over there. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you remember who the judges were?

Vann: I forgot who the judges were. It might have been Kilpatrick, I believe it was.

Little Thunder: Jean Kilpatrick?

Vann: Yes, and Maurice Devina, I believe, was another judge at that time. He was a news [reporter] for the Tulsa World. I think, because this was long ago. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Was that your first museum show?

Vann: It was one of the biggest moments of my life. Everybody is congratulating you, and of course, everybody is saying, "We're sorry that Jerome is not here." I'm not tooting my own horn or anything like that, but pretty much thereafter, people thought I was going to be the next Jerome Tiger because I was doing a lot of that type of work. Then, also, when I used to go his house and paint on his table, they thought I was going to be showing that [kind of work]. I told them I never would because Jerome was an artist that did what he did and nobody could ever fit his shoes. Nobody ever has.

We all go on to do what we do. One of the things he always said was, "Don't let 23:00anybody tell you what to do. You do what the spirit tells you," is what he always said. (Laughs) He was a very spiritual man.

Little Thunder: Do you remember what your image was for the Five Tribes Museum?

Vann: I couldn't really tell you exactly what they were, but roughly, pulling an image out of the air, they probably were the Trail of Tears, because everybody was painting the Trail of Tears back in those days. (Laughs) And stickball players. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What was your next career move after selling with Nettie?

Vann: I came home from the [Vietnam] war in '73. Nettie was at a very old age, and she was going in[to] the hospital at that time. So, another gentleman from Austin and I picked up together. We started our own company down in Austin, Nowotahee Galleries. He played the same role that Nettie Wheeler did. He was my agent for over forty years.

Little Thunder: And traveled to different shows with you?

Vann: Yes, we went all over the world with our shows.

Little Thunder: What were some of the highlights?

Vann: Being able to visit foreign countries, Europe, England, and people who had never experienced my type of work before. Of course, I was not the first American Indian artist to be shown in those areas because it goes so far back. Some of the old-timers actually visited Germany, Switzerland, England, Rome. But they had their own style. This was their first time experiencing what I did. It was well-received, especially in Germany. A lot of the German people had a very, 26:00very big admiration for the Native Americans.

Little Thunder: What was your style like at that point?

Vann: Like I said earlier, most of my styles were the Jerome Tiger styles. Everybody who was [an] upcoming artist had that style, too. Everybody was copying him. Of course, there were good artists out there that did very, very good work. But they didn't have that creativity that Jerome had. They thought, "I can draw just as good as he can. If I can draw it as good as he can, I can make money."

Money was the big thing back in those days. A lot of them did copy, down to the 27:00detail, what he did. But as the era went on, people who were[n't] gifted to do it their own way, couldn't keep up. They fell off to the wayside. Today, nobody knows what became of them. Then there's others that just popped up out of nowhere, overnight. You go out [to] New York and California and places like that, and nobody ever heard of them. They thought that they could do the same things that Jerome did. (Laughs) That circulated out quickly. People just kind of burned out. Now, people are looking for individuals who have their own spirit style. Again, I'm not tooting my own horn because it took me years to develop 28:00what I do now.

Little Thunder: How did you find your way into the really detailed landscapes?

Vann: It takes a lot of in-depth thinking about where you're at with your work. A lot of shows that you go to, people say, "Oh, you paint like this person. You paint like that person." I didn't think so. When you stand back and look at it, "Yes, yes, I did. What about doing what Donald Vann can do?" I'm talking about years ago, where it's developed from the early beginning, up to what it is today. You have to listen to anything that inspires the soul, not how people 29:00paint. Some paintings do inspire you, but that doesn't mean you have to go copy. You have to listen to nature. You have to listen to your spirit and your heart, and you have to listen to what maybe the elders said a long time ago.

Little Thunder: One thing I really love about your paintings is, it's not just the eyes that they appeal to, there's a whole sensory experience. It's like you see, you hear things. You can get the feeling of being inside that landscape. Are you consciously kind of striving for that?

Vann: I'm always striving for something that inspires. Like right now, you can 30:00look outside and see the moving leaves. That could trigger an inspiration of something. You can hear the wind blow. A lot of times that will inspire you, if it's just the right time. Sometimes, one word that a person says can inspire a whole finished painting in your head. Even a bird flying can inspire something. So, you're always open, I guess. The inner soul of you is listening all the time. And you know it, and you hear it.

Little Thunder: There have been two different threads that run through your work. One has been Cherokee imagery and another has been Plains imagery. When did you first get interested in that?

VannThat has been one of the most powerful questions that people have asked me for many years. "You're Cherokee, and you're doing Plains Indians." Well, back 31:00at the beginning of the popularity of Indian art paintings, people didn't really recognize Cherokees as Indian because the Cherokees were very big into copying the European way in lifestyle and dress. They copied the headdress, the coats, the turban, which was not traditional. They didn't wear feathers. They didn't ride the horses. They didn't live in tipis. So, I kind of had to go back to 32:00portray the American Indian not tribalized, kind of generically, [to] say, "This is what the Plains Indians did." Because I don't know enough, in detail, [about] all the tribes out there who are Plains Tribes, to say, "This is the Sioux. This is the Arapaho. This is the Cheyenne." I dare not, because if you do, you better know it.

But when it comes to Cherokee, I can, because I know more about Cherokees than other people who are painting Cherokees. I speak the language, too. Fluently. At the time when I was painting Plains-type themes, that's what the general public was looking for. When people think of Indian paintings, they want to see them 33:00riding horses, chasing buffalo, feathers in their hair. Burial themes, scaffolds, living in tipis. That's why I did that because that's what was selling back in those times. I could paint a Cherokee painting, and it would sit there. Nobody would know what it was because Cherokees didn't have the feathers in their hair. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: A lot of artists went through that. [It's a kind of] give-and-take, where the artists educate the public and bring them along, but you still have to make a living.

Vann: Right. That's what sold back in those days. [There was] a certain time period back in the '80s, when we went to a western and Indian show in Denver, 34:00Colorado. I'm the one person that appreciates western paintings, I really do. I think they do great work. But back at that time, western art was not selling. So, when we got there, I looked around and wanted to see some cowboy paintings. They were all painting Indians because cowboy art wasn't selling. (Laughter) Even the mountain men painters, they were painting Indians.

So, it went through a period when people--it was all Indian. Right after Dances with Wolves. My god, the Indian stuff just exploded. Everybody wanted something to do with Indians at the time. Everybody was part Cherokee. (Laughs) We had so 35:00many people come to our shows who claimed to be Cherokee, with their great-great-grandmother being Cherokee princesses. (Laughs) I told them my great-great-grandfather was a Cherokee princess. (Laughter) We don't talk about him, though. Keep it in the closet. It was a big joke. (Laughter) There were no Cherokee princesses back in those days. That was a hobbyist thing.

Little Thunder: You've always incorporated animal imagery in your paintings, and I understand you were involved with a wolf project in Minnesota?

Vann: Yes, when I lived in Minnesota. There was a time when I had a couple of residences, and I did a lot of my work right outside of Minneapolis in the 36:00winter months. I had a lot of collectors who lived up in those areas and also, some real good collectors who lived in Madison. They worked with wildlife biologists, researched there, out at the university, and they knew that I was very much into wolf imagery by that time. [I] was invited to go with them when so many Canadian wolf packs were coming into Minnesota. They were all coming into the Boundary Waters. Of course, when you have so many packs that come into 37:00the United States in that area, there's problems.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I was asked if I wanted to join them for that time, which I did. It gave me [a] really, really great photography opportunity and movie opportunity.

Wildlife biologists are good with wildlife, but they're not good trackers. (Laughter) The project was to count undocumented packs. The Boundary Waters were not funded for that kind of an expedition, which was totally voluntary. Our part was to document undocumented packs coming into the Boundary Waters. If you get 38:00too many packs in one area, they start killing each other or they start killing off too much livestock or wildlife in those areas. The sad part was that some of them had to be put away as we contacted them. Not from our group--we just documented where all these packs were. A pack of ten to twelve wolves need at least seventy-five miles square of territory. You get fifteen or twenty packs in seventy-five miles square, that's not good. So, that was our part.

Little Thunder: You did this for about a year?

Vann: Actually, I didn't do that a total year. We were out there two times. The first time was the longest time, over six weeks we were out there. The second 39:00time was towards the fall. The first time you have to go in the spring to see what packs have litter. Then in the [fall], you go back out to those same areas to see how they thrived or have they moved on elsewhere. A lot of times they didn't. They were actually not doing well. The last time when we were there in September of that year, they were eating bugs. There was a lot of insects in their diet.

Little Thunder: Sometimes the business part of art is the hardest part to learn. It sounds like you've been fortunate to have good business partners. In terms of 40:00what you print and when you print, how do you go about deciding?

Vann: Actually, right now, today, as we speak, I'm very blessed with a whole new company. It's set up, and I'm very blessed by the Great Spirit, the Creator, that I have a partner that is very talented, very gifted. He's an artist in his own way, marketing and understanding these things. Scott Barnard has been really a great inspiration to me in a lot of ways, and also [in] making those decisions. He and I resonate so well together, we think alike, almost. (Laughs) 41:00He's the printer, and he's the editor, and he's my CEO. He's the man that says, "Yup, it'll sell. Nope, it won't sell." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: So, we're talking about in-house printing your company does?

Vann: Yes. We have our own printer set up, and we're looking forward to purchasing bigger printers a little bit later, so we can do a lot bigger giclees. He being an expert in technology, he's the man that knows how to make giclees work in the way that is higher quality than some of the other giclees out there that we've seen printed. We're trying to do away with off-set printing 42:00because off-set printing is a thing of the past now. Giclees on canvases is the in-thing today. You can print giclees on thicker paper--they look nice. But something about printing on canvas gives it that quality, that classy look.

Little Thunder: I'm wondering what changes you saw between Oklahoma Indian art in the '80s, and then in the '90s.

Vann: I think in the '80s into the '90s was a great boom for any kind of 43:00art--tribal art, jewelry, paintings. Not tooting my own horn, but we did extremely well in the '80s. But something happened towards the '90s where it started kind of slowly, slowly, taking a backseat to everything else. We need another movie, Dances with Wolves or something like that, to get people refocused. But it'll have to be a lot, because right now, I believe that a lot of the general, mass-produced trinket stuff, trinkets that people have put out 44:00kind of ruined the market. Europeans come here, the Japanese, the Chinese come here. They think this trinket stuff that was made overnight is it! They look at something that's handmade jewelry, or a painting that took months to do, they look at the price and go, "My God, I don't want to pay that. I can buy this little trinket over here, and it's the real thing."

That's where the hobbyists came in and ruined all of that. All due respect to them, they have to make money, too. They have to earn a living--that's where the 45:00card-carrying idea came in. Federally- recognized Indian blood cards came in. So, people like this can't show at Indian shows. If you don't have those cards on you, they won't let you in because they're trying to weed all that out [to] where quality control is back in. But it'll be a long time before that will happen. There's still a market out there [but] people will only buy something [that's] unique, that's totally different.

You can go to Santa Fe. The last Indian Market I was at in Santa Fe, I was not showing. I remember Santa Fe twenty, thirty years ago where there were hoards, 46:00masses of people all over Santa Fe. You couldn't hardly walk. The last time I was there, it was like the streets were empty, galleries were empty almost. Even the market itself was not as big as it used to be. Everywhere you looked, galleries had pots, pots, pots, pots, pots. How many pots can you have? Paintings and paintings and jewelry. Pawn jewelry. Outside of Santa Fe, there were, again, these trinket people. Jewelry made in China, Japan. Plastic turquoise stones. I think it just kind of burned out. People have pretty much burned out of it. You go out to New York, same thing. You have to find that 47:00right person that's still interested in something totally unique that is original. They know it, and they'll buy it.

Little Thunder: I was going to ask you when the last time you did Santa Fe Indian Market was.

Vann: I lost my shirt. (Laughs) I lost my shirt. (Laughs) I went in '94, and it was not good. You heard about people doing well, but it depends on what "well" is to them. But I was very disappointed with that.

Little Thunder: You're getting ready to open a studio as well as a gallery here in partnership with Scott, in Tahlequah.

Vann: Yes. My partner and I, Scott, we're working very hard finding the right 48:00location here in Tahlequah. And when that comes about, we're going to work on setting up our own gallery. We may look into setting up a frame shop with computerized framing equipment, and also a teaching area, so we can bring in other talented people to teach young people who are looking to develop their talents. These young people will be interviewed, not to waste their time, [to make sure this] young person is really focused [on] the future with their talent. Those are the kinds of people that we want to work [with]. A lot of 49:00times kids will come off the street and say, "Oh, I want to learn how to paint." Before you know it, they're in prison, or they're doing something else. That's a waste of time. We'll be looking at working with young people who are totally focused in their artistic abilities and their talent, [to] develop themselves into the future. If they want to go and do something else with their education, then we'll certainly be happy to back them up on that. But at least they would have had that certain credibility. We'll say, "Yes, they did attend our classes."

Little Thunder: Will this be your first time teaching young people?

Vann: I've never really, really taught any young people, per se. Just coaching 50:00here or there, would be the best way to answer that. I never had a place where I could really do that. But once we get our location, then we'll be able to fulfill that dream. Right now, looking around in the local area, Tahlequah, Stillwell, Westville, there's a lot of young people who are loaded with talent, but there's nobody here to encourage them. Even some of the tribal leaders aren't doing anything to encourage them. I don't want to say names, but I think 51:00that little part that we will do, will help them. Give them a direction. Then it will have been well worth [it].

Little Thunder: Sounds wonderful. You pretty much paint exclusively in water colors, is that right?

Vann: Yes, I do. I experimented with a lot of other mediums years ago, and watercolor wash has been one of the best working media for me. I'm very knowledgeable in airbrush techniques, too. A lot of that stuff, we'll be teaching the young people, once we get this started.

Little Thunder: How important is underpainting for you?

Vann: It is important because that's what's going to give you the base of your painting as you come forward. Underpainting, to me, means that your background focus has to be just as important as your foreground focus. You have to get that right.

Little Thunder: I understand you have some pretty nice brushes. (Laughs)

Vann: $400 dollars right here. (Gestures) These are all handmade in England. (Laughs) The quality of the equipment is what makes the quality of your work 53:00come out. I've seen artists who use dime store-type brushes or Michael's hobby store brushes, Grumbacher's, Dick Blick's, twenty bucks, thirty bucks. If you're trying to do a $10,000, $15,000, $25,000 dollar painting, you better be using good equipment. That's how important equipment is.

Little Thunder: What about preliminary drawings? Do you sketch everything out beforehand?

Vann: Yes, I do. What I like to do is several drawings of different poses. I noticed that a lot of artists do their drawing, their experimental drawings, 54:00right on the board or right on the canvas. Without doing a preliminary drawing first. I do, like, five at a time. That way you can overlap each one and see which one you want to work with. You can do all your mistakes on the drawing first and change it, if you will. But some of the artists I've seen will go right directly to the board, canvas they're going to be working on. And they're erasing as they're going along. Then they paint around it, and you can see the pencil marks. That's not good. (Laughter) That's why I do mine first. Then you transfer it onto your canvas or watercolor board, because the main focus is to 55:00finish your background first and then concentrate on the main figures--whatever it may be. That way you don't have all these pencil drawings and erase marks, and you're not painting around them.

Little Thunder: Have you ever tried just painting landscapes, or has anybody ever suggested you could just be a landscape painter?

Vann: I have had many people who have asked me to do just landscape, not necessarily any Indian subject matter, and that's fine. Sometimes landscapes can speak for themselves. You can put a simple bird on there or maybe a rabbit or 56:00maybe a wolf with a nice landscape, and that will mean a lot to people who feel it spiritually. But I'm not a landscape artist. (Laughs) I do them as a background. To me, if I did a landscape, then it's incomplete. I have to have something up front. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Do you take photographs for your landscape or do you just rely on memory?

Vann: I do photograph references. I like to do my own photography. Also, my partner, Scott, a lot of times will take photographs of sunsets for me while we're going down the road or if we're doing something. It's nice that somebody has the same eye that I do, and I know that it's going to be what I wanted to 57:00look at as my background.

It's always nice to do [photographic] references because it's forever changing. Say, if it's in the evening, you've got a beautiful sunset going on. You look at it again, in the next five seconds, it's changed. And then there's that one scene that--"Ah!" You want that picture. You want to capture that on camera because the mind is not going to remember every detail. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: You're really masterful at getting those effects the airbrush can give. Do you want to talk a little bit about [that]?

Vann: I think airbrush is a very neat tool. Also, airbrush is actually a lot harder tool to work with than the paintbrush is. Because the airbrush, you're always suspended above your paper or your canvas, and you never have contact with the surface like you do with the brush. So, there's no room for mistakes with airbrush. But if you master it right and you know exactly how it works, and you've got your colors right, you'll do well with an airbrush. It's a very nice tool to work with. It's clean. You can do backgrounds. The skies with the airbrush, it's clean. A lot of artists who use oils or acrylics, they'll use a 59:00brush, a flat brush, and they'll go stroking across it. Then when you look at it, it's going to have that brushstroke look. Even when it blends in with other colors, it's going to have that strokey look. But the airbrush is clean. You don't see those strokes on it. The other technique with acrylics or oils, they look nice from afar, but when you walk right up to it, they have that strokey look to them. But airbrush, it's flat, it's clean, and where the blends come in, they're perfect. That's what's so nice about airbrush. The rest is up to the artist, how well they master the airbrush. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: How important is telling a story in your work? There seem to be kind of two veins, establishing the mood, but also this idea of telling the story.

Vann: Yes, you're correct. Setting the mood is very important, and then what you want to put in is whatever you feel is going to tell a story. A lot of times, like I said earlier, just a simple bird sitting there can tell a whole story. Also, some of the images that we're looking at here in the studio have a lot of Cherokee images in the paintings. What's important is what they're doing, because it sets the mood. Then you see exactly what's going on. (Gesturing at a painting) They're looking at an eagle who has just caught a fish and is in 61:00flight out. These are Cherokee Indians that just came out onto the rocks there. They're not canoes, but dugout canoes. Cherokees didn't have birch bark canoes. To them, it's like a sign, it's a sacred thing to see an eagle and then also, it's a sign that this is a good omen, this is a good place for them to be. And the background, the sunset, is this mood setter.

Little Thunder: Do you go so far as to kind of imagine what was happening the moment before and what's going to happen when they leave?

Vann: Sometimes I do that. I'll do a continuation of it, sometimes [in another 62:00image]. Sometimes you don't need to go that far. It just stops like that. There's no need. Sometimes you're working on a painting and then, something else inspires you, all of these other images start coming in. Before you finish the painting, there's already another painting that you see. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: You've kind of addressed this a little bit, but what is your creative process?

Vann: Well, a creative process can be from whatever inspired. Whatever the inspiration is, is the beginning of the creative process. Sometimes it can be just watching a person or maybe just a leaf turning. A lot of times, you think 63:00back, stories that maybe grandparents told you or the elders told you. Those stories are always ticking in the back of your head, and those inspire creative processes.

Little Thunder: Will you sketch something real quick when it occurs to you, or do you just file it away, mentally?

Vann: To me, I kind of lock it in, in memory, and I give it a title. Then when the opportunity comes, I'll sit behind my drawing board and look up that title in my head. And out comes that inspiration, that thought, because not all the 64:00time does an artist carry sketchbooks around. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: [On this] print, where the hunter climbed up the tree, followed by the bear cubs and then their mom, and at the bottom of the tree is the skunk, [what is] the importance of humor?

Vann: I like to think that there was a lot of humor that was going on out there at the time. Today, too. Everything's not always where you're starving and you're cold and hungry, and somebody's trying to do away with you. I believe 65:00that there were a lot of humorous things that went on out there. The one that you're talking about with the bears climbing up the tree was just a creative thing--my own sense of humor. (Laughs)

I thought, "If that can happen to anybody, it's going to happen to me." (Laughter) A lot of people love that image, but they fail to see the skunk at the bottom of tree. They see the bears climbing up behind the Indian climbing up. And a lot of times the skunk is right there in front of them, but they don't really see it.

Little Thunder: That's what makes the title, "A Really Bad Day." (Laughter)

Vann: Yes, having a bad day. Also, skunks climb trees, too. (Laughter) That was just kind of a creative thing that I came up [with], and people enjoyed that. 66:00Again, like I said, Indians were not always out there cold, tired, and hungry, in turmoil. A lot of funny things were going on. The Great Spirit has humor.

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughter) Have you ever experimented with sculpture at all?

Vann: I've never really tried serious sculpture before. I tried one time, and it just was not my thing.

Little Thunder: What is your creative routine?

Vann: My creative routine? Trying to make money. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you spend a certain number of hours painting or does it just 67:00depend on the day?

Vann: No, all joking aside, I spend as much time as I can when I'm in the work mode. I can sit up thirty-six to forty-eight hours at a time, nonstop. Nonstop. Sometimes, you're really on a roll. I stayed up three days one time, without sleep. Then you take a break, and then you go right back to it. Trying to build a better mousetrap kind of thing. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Would you rather paint during the day or at night or does it matter?

Vann: Again, it's whatever the mood has you in. It doesn't matter day or night. 68:00You're nonstop, you're working. It's kind of like a freight train from coast to coast, it doesn't stop until it gets to the other end. Day and night. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Looking back over your career, what was a turning point for you? When you might have gone this direction, but you decided to go that way.

Vann: I don't think there really ever was a turning point because I've always done this for a living. I've painted all my life. I love what I do. I enjoy what I do. The biggest reward is when you do an image that's well done and people 69:00resonate with that. They feel that. You don't have to explain to them. It projects to them spiritually, inside. A lot of people have cried in front of my paintings. They felt that, without [me] having to explain anything to them. That's what really, really gives me that fulfillment that I did something. Even if they couldn't afford it, they couldn't even buy the print, at least I've touched somebody or somebody got touched with what--I don't want to say [what] I did--the spirit artists that work through me, [they] are the ones that did that. I'm just a tool. I'm just a tool.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the highlights of your career?

Vann: Going back to what I was just saying, being able to touch people with what I do. That's the biggest highlight you can get. Monetarily, that's fine, too. A lot of artists, we work for a living just like everybody else, but sometimes monetarily becomes secondary when you see people, plain people who are touched by what you're doing. I could ask for no bigger reward than that.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points in your career so far?

Vann: Seeing other artists who tried many years to make it a go and seeing them destroy themselves. Not my low point, but I see that as a low point--somebody who had a wonderful career, and all of a sudden, something happened that they just don't do anything about. My view of the low points is that, because they could have done something. But sometimes things happen in their career where you 72:00can't help them. Hopefully, I'm strong enough where I can avoid that.

Little Thunder: Does it kind of feel like your career is coming full circle by moving back to Oklahoma?

Vann: Well, yes and no. (Laughs) I guess that's something [that] remains to be seen. I really don't know what to expect. But I know what our goals are. We're going to work on our goals because nobody is going to help us. So, we're going to do it ourselves. Whatever happens around us, that's out there. We have 73:00focused on our future goals, and we're going to go for it the best way we can.

Little Thunder: Friendships with artists, starting with Jerome Tiger, [have] been important in your life. I'm wondering if that's still a big thread, to be able to reconnect with some of the people working in Oklahoma.

Vann: Well, Jerome Tiger--he was my mentor, which was the highest honor to me. 74:00And that memory. You ask a lot of other artists, they don't even know who he is anymore. But the first fifteen, twenty, twenty-five years a lot of people knew who he was and [he] inspired a lot of people.

Then, all of a sudden, it's a whole different movement. Young people coming up may see some of his artwork, but they [don't] know how he really had a big part 75:00in the art movement. It kind of reminds me of the Beatles when they first came to the United States. There were no long-haired people with guitars, right? Everybody had short, '50s crew cuts. All of a sudden, they came into the United States, and a month later, everybody has got long hair, playing a guitar. (Laughs) That's how he affected the art world.

Little Thunder: So, you may be passing on knowledge about Indian art history along with painting lessons?

Vann: I hope so. I hope just some of the things that I've done will eventually survive and may be able to inspire some future generation. If that happens, then 76:00it will have been well worth what I did. But I'm not looking for fame and glory. I want my art to be [my] fame and glory, not me as a person.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we've forgotten to cover before we take a look at your paintings? Anything you'd like to talk about that we didn't?

Vann: Well, I'd like to go back to my grandparents, the important part that they played in my upbringing because back in our days, there was honor in my family. And [there's] very few families I've seen with this honor anymore.

The young kids growing up are not learning from parents or grand-parents. But these were different times, and this is a different time now. This is the day 77:00and age of the computers and iPods and cell phones. Not once can you see a young kid walking down the street without texting or a cell phone in their ear. Back in those days, we had our grandparents to listen to. We heard what they said. We heard the stories they told us. We watched what they did. Going out into the woods with my grand-mothers, I watched some of the things that they dug up, some of the herbs that they collected. They would tell us what this is. "This is edible. This is what can cure a headache," or, "This is what will give your sore throat relief."

How many young kids have grandparents that know these things today? Not very many. Also, how many grandparents speak Cherokee that can translate that to the 78:00kids? They may speak Cherokee, but their kids are not even understanding Cherokee. They're teaching Cherokee again, but is it too late? Because the grandparents are dying with that knowledge. That's one of the things that I really treasure the most, these things that I learned from both sets of grandparents. And also, spiritual things that they talked about, the spirits out there that were active. The evil spirits. Also, people who did conjuring, who did bad medicine to you. Grand-father used to say that nobody can do bad medicine to you unless you want them to. You have to let that in first.

A lot of people say, "Oh, I stubbed my toe on a rock. Somebody is doing bad medicine on me." That opens you up. (Laughs) The rest is what you want to 79:00believe. Every time you fall down and land on your knees, you think somebody is conjuring you. Or you wake up with a fever. (Laughs) "Joe Blow down the road is doing bad medicine on me." Come on. (Laughs) That's some of the things that grandfather used to tell me about. He said, "A lot of people bring that on themselves. There's these other things that you'll know when something else is going on."

Even though both of my grandfathers were Raven Mockers, like I said, never once did I see them do any bad medicine to anybody. They were always healing people. At any given time, you could go to my grandfather's house and he'd have ten, fifteen people for the weekend there, looking for his spiritual guidance, his 80:00counseling, his medicine. A lot of times they all stayed in that house, and he would be healing them. Also, he was never in need of anything because a lot of people paid him in so many different ways that he had plenty all the time. He had horses, he had cattle, pigs, chickens, you name it. People brought him these things because people did not have money. Every once in a while somebody had a dime or something. And a lot of times when somebody couldn't pay him, just a simple thank you from the heart was more than you could ask for. That's what he used to tell me. He said he knew, he felt that thank you because that's all they had to give. And that's how medicine worked back in those days.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that. I wonder if you'd like to talk a 81:00little bit about your paintings. Can I videotape the newest one?

Vann: Sure. That's another thing that a lot of people--a lot of Cherokees, have a big thing about. Little People or fairies. Fairies are Little People, too. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: (Changing paintings) This is actually somebody you know, whose daughter came to model?

Vann: Scott's daughter's good friend from Sequoia, the high school there, her name is Sunday. She's quite a striking-looking young lady. I thought that her 82:00profile, her face made a good painting for this. And she's wearing a Cherokee Roses dress. I'm sure you probably know about those.

Little Thunder: The title of this one is--

Vann: It's Morning Ceremony with the Little People.

The Little People--they're the elders, the Holy Men. It's, like, at dawn, the Little People were around the village. A lot of times they came for protection. And you could tell that some of them got caught before they got to all leave. 83:00Here's one that's kind of still hiding. The rest of them are going back up into the mountains. They're doing the medicine smoke. These are Cherokees. And he's a Raven Mocker.

Little Thunder: [What about] these horses?

Vann: There's really no story on them. It's just two colts and the mama and the daddy looking on.

Little Thunder: Nice little family picture. And this--

Vann: That's the one I was talking about where the eagle is a good omen. A sign of good medicine, yes. Those [warriors] feel like they're in the right place. And then also, I said earlier, the sunset sets the mood for that. Everything 84:00that they're wearing, even to the facial tattoos, the arm tattoos are historically accurate. I did a lot of research on that.

Little Thunder: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today, Donald.

Vann: You're welcome. The Three Sisters over there, that tells the story. It's the story of corn, bean, and squash.

Little Thunder: If you want me to shoot The Three Sisters, I think it would be a nice one to finish up with.

Vann: Yes, it's a very, very interesting story but it's been interpreted in so many different ways, too. These are real faces, actually.

Little Thunder: They're very realistic.

Vann: Actually, this is Morgan, Scott's daughter, but her hair is dark. The corn woman had yellow, flowing hair with the shuck. So, that kind of distracts you. You'd say, "That doesn't look like Morgan, but if it was darker hair, it would look like her." And this is her friend from the school, Carrie. And this is another one of her friends from the school.

Little Thunder: Were they excited to be represented in one of your paintings?

Vann: Oh, oh. Yes, yes. We did giclees on it, and we gave them each a print.

Also, this one here is on the humorous side. It was something my dad told me one time, when he went fishing when he was a little bit younger. (Laughs) Of course, he wasn't boat fishing, he was using a fishing cane. He said he'd had a pretty good afternoon, and he figured he'd caught enough bass. So, he reeled his line 86:00in and there was nothing but fish heads on that line. He said a turtle has been eating his catch the whole time. (Laughter) I kind of did that up so the turtle's eating his fish. The way he told it in Cherokee was funny. He was like, "I pulled up my line and there was only fish heads there." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a nice sampling. Thank you for your time today.

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