Oral history interview with Charles Pratt

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, March 4, 2011. I'm in Gallup, New Mexico, at the home of Charles Pratt. Charlie, you're a Cheyenne-Arapaho tribal member. You're an incredibly versatile figure, a very important Indian sculptor. Can you tell us where you were born and where you grew up?

Pratt: I was born at Concho, Oklahoma. It's a Cheyenne-Arapaho Indian Agency, and I went to school there for six years, from third to the ninth grade or the tenth grade. I forget now.

Little Thunder: You're a descendant of a famous trader named William Bent, who 1:00founded Bent's Fort. Can you tell me a little more about that, if it's on your mom or your dad's side?

Pratt: It's on my mother's side. My mother was Cheyenne and Sioux and French and English, and my father was a full-blooded Arapaho.

Little Thunder: Sometimes when you have both Cheyenne-Arapaho ancestry, one will choose to be raised one way or the other. Did you have to choose? (Laughs)

Pratt: Yes, I claimed the Arapaho blood because there's more of it, and I grew up without knowing my father. He died at the age of forty-two. I was seven years old.

Little Thunder: That must have been hard for you. Is that when you went to live with your grandfather, around that time?

Pratt: Yes. My grandfather helped my mother raise her children.

Little Thunder: So that was your mom's father?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: What do you remember about growing up with him?

Pratt: That he kept us under control. There was four brothers. I was right in the middle of four younger brothers and three older sisters. He kept us well-disciplined and taught us how to make clay models.

Little Thunder: Where did you get your clay?

Pratt: He would get it from the river, river beds or river banks.

Little Thunder: What were the kinds of things that you and he would make?

Pratt: They related to farming and ranching and horses. We would build corrals and barns and stock them with the horses and cattle, and we would make wagons and make whole scenes with that.

Little Thunder: I imagine you didn't have a lot of extras for toys or anything, so that was your entertainment.

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did your grandfather notice that you had an unusual ability for sculpting?

Pratt: No, he didn't give any attention to one. He just taught us how to form them, and we took it from there.

Little Thunder: He was glad that you were occupied. (Laughs) Did you do any wood carving at a young age?

Pratt: No, I don't remember doing any wood carving.

Little Thunder: When you were at Concho going to boarding school was there any art instruction?

Pratt: No, none. We had to work all the time. We were given assignments. We got up early, and we started working right away. We worked in the kitchen and the 5:00administration and clean-ups. Even had their own farms that we worked on. I remember one of my jobs was to feed the hogs first thing in the morning, early. I pulled a cart down to the stables and fed the hogs. That's where I got the idea for a turquoise corn sculpture. I fed a can of corn in the slop bucket. 6:00Each slop bucket, I emptied a can of corn in there. Later years when I was doing sculpture, I was running my hand through some turquoise nuggets, and I thought, "Well, that would be perfect for the corn," so I made corn out of it.

Little Thunder: It was like a sense memory?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: The focus in those days was on learning a trade, manual work, not much opportunity for--

Pratt: Well, I first started out as a painter because I didn't have the equipment to do sculpture. That's what I had in mind, but I started out as a painter. By the time I finished high school, while I was in high school, I was 7:00selling my paintings.

Little Thunder: Ok, great. So you were painting flat style with Tempera [paints]?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Who were you selling to?

Pratt: Well, I remember there wasn't too many places for you to go to sell things. The only one that I knew was in Oklahoma City. I went in there, and I was trying to show him my paintings. He finally looked at them, and he said, "No, I can't use any of these." As I was going out the door, I seen a Woody Crumbo silkscreen. I forget how much it was, but I asked. I told him that I would trade him all the paintings I had (I probably had about fourteen or 8:00fifteen small ones) for that, and he says, "All right." That was just to get my foot in the door. (Laughs) Next time I came in, he says, "Have you got any more of those?" I said, "Yes sir, I've got some little paintings," and that's how I got started with him.

Little Thunder: So you didn't know Woody Crumbo's art, did you? Were you familiar with his art? Aside from that silkscreen, had you seen his work before?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: You kind of ended up with a valuable thing, too, and got your foot in the door. (Laughs) Did you see Dick West's art and Archie Blackowl's quite a bit, too, growing up?

Pratt: Yes, yes.

Little Thunder: Do you think they were influences on your painting when you started out?

Pratt: Oh, yes. I tried to copy them all.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) That's how good artists learn. In public school, Indian kids weren't always treated on an equal basis with white kids. The public school teachers in El Reno, did they recognize your talent at school?

Pratt: Yes, yes. Well, I'm light-complected, for one thing. It's been a plus and a minus, both. When I was in school at Concho with all those boys, at first it was hard because I was light-complected, and I was always getting into fights. Then it was a plus when I was in public schools.

Little Thunder: Because they treated you a little better because you weren't so dark-complected?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: What kinds of encouragement did [teachers]offer? Just told you you did a good job?

Pratt: They had competitions, and I won some of them and lost a few. I'm seventy-three years old now, and I'm still competing against the younger generation.

Little Thunder: And still winning awards, too. (Laughs) One of your first jobs was at an auto body repair shop. Is that right?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: I think you created one of your first artworks there, in 11:00sculpture. Can you tell us what happened and where you were working? I think you made a shield.

Pratt: Yes, I made the Oklahoma state flag. I made the emblem off of that in metal from car parts. I had it hanging on my wall, and somebody wanted it. When I found out that people wanted those things, I started making them.

Little Thunder: And you used an acetylene torch at that point? Can you explain what it is for people? It's involved with welding, right? It's a welder's tool.

Pratt: Yes, you can weld steel with it, and you can braze brass on metals, 12:00different metals, with it.

Little Thunder: It actually has a small flame, but it's very intense heat.

Pratt: Yes, you can get a jeweler's torch or commercial industrial type torches.

Little Thunder: How early would you say you knew you wanted to be an artist?

Pratt: I knew when I was in high school.

Little Thunder: When you were doing the painting?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: But that first shield, State of Oklahoma symbol, did that start triggering more ideas? Was that kind of a turning point for you to get into sculpture, or did you continue your painting for a while?

Pratt: I continued the paintings because I couldn't afford the equipment for the metal.

Little Thunder: Once you started selling those shields, did the sculpture begin to kind of fund itself?

Pratt: Yes, I was making all kinds of things with scrap metal out of the body shops that they were throwing away. I was making things out of them.

Little Thunder: When did you place your first sculpture in a gallery?

Pratt: Gee, I don't--I can't remember.

Little Thunder: Do you remember one of the first galleries you started dealing with?

Pratt: I had an older man help me when I first got out of high school. I was already selling a few paintings. His name was Woodrow Big Bow. I got acquainted 14:00with him, and I would drive for him. He made the insignia for the 45th Division of the Oklahoma Army, the thunderbird. He needed me to help him drive to different cities, and he would sell my paintings along while he was selling his.

Little Thunder: Yes, because he was an artist, Woody Big Bow. So he sort of became the way that you got acquainted with some different galleries or outlets?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you do any early mall shows, Charlie, with your sculptures?

Pratt: Yes, Shepherd Mall in Oklahoma City was the first mall show.

Little Thunder: And who were the other artists that were showing at that time?

Pratt: That Seminole man.

Little Thunder: Kelly Haney?

Pratt: No. It was--gosh, I can't remember his name right off hand. He was an older gentleman. He was at the shows all the time. He was always dressed nice. He always had white shoes on. [Fred Beaver]

Little Thunder: Anybody else you can think of, off the top of your head?

Pratt: A Davis. He was a painter. Kelly Haney was one of them. You mentioned 16:00him. He was at the shows.

Little Thunder: How much were you charging for your--

Pratt: All I could get. (Laughter) I don't remember the prices.

Little Thunder: What was the attitude of the public at the mall shows? Was there quite a bit of interest?

Pratt: No. I started full time in '69, so from the '60s until now, I've been 17:00doing Native American art shows and galleries.

Little Thunder: When did you meet Delores and start a family? Was that prior to 1969?

Pratt: Yes, I think it was in '64, something like that.

Little Thunder: Did Delores help with the business at all?

Pratt: Oh, yes. She was--she had a good personality. She was always willing to 18:00talk to everybody, and she kept me pretty straight.

Little Thunder: Good representative when you were set up with a booth or whatever?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: You started your own foundry, didn't you, Charlie?

Pratt: Yes. I was taking my artwork to a foundry in Ruidoso, or I would send it there on a bus to this foundry, and they would cast bronzes for me. I had no idea. Well, I'd done a mall show with a bunch of other artists that were not Native Americans, and I got acquainted with some of the people that had bronzes. This one said he had a foundry in Ruidoso, and he'd be glad to cast my stuff. So 19:00I'd send it to him, and he'd cast them.

One day, I went down there to pick some up. I drove down there, and I wound up staying for two weeks. I told him I would work for free just so I could learn the process. He says, "Yes, I'll be glad to have you for free." (Laughter) He said he'd built all the equipment himself. He had a book on how he built it all, so he gave me a copy of the book. It was just small, individual pages. I took it, and I built my own foundry in Oklahoma City and ran it for three years.

Little Thunder: Wow! I was wondering because it's expensive to cast, isn't it?

Pratt: Bronzes are expensive. That's how come they're so high. If you get 20:00somebody to cast them, it costs quite a bit.

Little Thunder: So when you were having the Ruidoso place cast for you, was it just you and Delores kind of saving your money from the art and reinvesting it?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: When you built your own foundry, that must've been, even though you built it from scratch, did you have to hustle, kind of? Did you get an investor to help you?

Pratt: Well, I ran it for three years, and found out that it's not what I wanted.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) Were you doing other people's work, at that point?

Pratt: Yes, yes. People started coming to me, and I couldn't get any work done.

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughs) What were some of the first competitive shows?

Pratt: The first one I remember was at Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa. I won a prize 21:00for the Tall Cheyenne, and it was a piece of sculpture only that big. (Gestures)

Little Thunder: It was a miniature. Oh my goodness. And it was welded?

Pratt: Welded, yes.

Little Thunder: It must've had some beautiful detail that impressed them. (Laughs) Did you ever enter the Philbrook Annual?

Pratt: Yes. Yes, I won best of show there the first time I entered, with Corn.

Little Thunder: With Corn, using your trademark turquoise. There were many more 22:00painters than sculptors, probably, and there probably weren't too many Indian sculptors working in metal, were there, in Oklahoma?

Pratt: No, the only one I knew of was Allan Houser, and I've had shows with him in Chicago.

Little Thunder: Wow. Was this in the '70s?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: And what was that like, because that was probably new for them in Chicago? Did you have a good reception for the art?

Pratt: Yes. It was called the Squash Blossom Gallery. It was in Highland Park. It's an upscale place.

Little Thunder: Was it a two-man?

Pratt: No, it was a three-man show.

Little Thunder: You and Allen Houser and--

Pratt: And a jeweler from Phoenix, Preston Monongye.

Little Thunder: I'd like to ask about Santa Fe Indian Market first. When did you do your first Indian Market show?

Pratt: I think it was in '72 or '73.

Little Thunder: You were still living in Oklahoma City, right?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: It's kind of a different market, a different atmosphere. What were your thoughts when you did that show? Did you just think this might be a good place to be selling art?

Pratt: Yes, I had people buying my artwork that lived in Oklahoma, and they'd go to Santa Fe to buy it. (Laughter) When they found out I lived right there in Oklahoma, they'd say, "Oh, we didn't even know it!" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's the paradox of Santa Fe for a lot of Oklahoma artists. You had that small winning sculpture at Gilcrease that you told me about. How soon did you move into larger works, outdoor sculpture types of work? Was it from the very beginning, or did you kind of find your way into doing larger pieces?

Pratt: I was always looking for somebody that wanted something big, and I always found them.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. So you would do the larger piece first? It wasn't like commissions where somebody would say--.

Pratt: Both commission and--I always do things that I like, and for some reason, they sell.

Little Thunder: Because they're beautifully done. Do you have to think a little bit differently when you're doing a larger outdoor sculpture?

Pratt: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: What are some of the things you have to consider?

Pratt: The actual size, the placement, and the perspective.

Little Thunder: So you'll go check out the site.

Pratt: Yes. You can do something large, and it'll be out of proportion when you're standing on the ground looking at it, and you have to think of all those kind of things.

Little Thunder: You showed quite a bit overseas, too. Can you talk about some of 26:00the highlights of some of the places that you showed your artwork and some of the memories that stand out the most for you?

Pratt: I had a one-man show in Wiesbaden, Germany, and the gallery took good care of me. I've done a show in Rennes, France, at the Franco-American Museum. I've done shows in Switzerland, Austria, and Italy. [I was in Venice and they 27:00were bringing our luggage off the boat. The streets were filled with water and they were putting them on the dock. One guy says in English, "Who's from Oklahoma? Is he Indian? He hollers to another guy in Italian, and this big tall guy runs over and hugs me, lifts me right off the ground. I told him, "Put me down, or I'm going to slap your ears." Turns out, he's half Indian and half Italian, and he's never met an Oklahoma Indian before. So I told the guy who spoke English, "Well, tell him I'm not his daddy."]

Little Thunder: Did you get to look at any sculpture on your travels?

Pratt: Oh, yes, I did. I wanted to see the marble quarries in Carrara [Italy]. I wanted to see those, and we drove up there. They was bringing things down, solid pieces as big as a semi-trailer. As we were going up there, I could see the river on the passenger side, and it was just white like milk, from them cutting that stone up there, that white marble, and it going down in the river.

Little Thunder: Wow. I bet you were wishing you could bring some back. (Laughs)

Pratt: Yes, I was going to buy some. That's what I had in mind. They said, 28:00"We're going to ship it to you." They was telling me if I bought some, they could ship it to me, and it would go all the way on water. It would go in the Gulf of Mexico, and come up the Mississippi, and go to the Arkansas River to Tulsa, and I could pick it up there, but I didn't do it.

Little Thunder: Oh my goodness. Would it have just been insanely expensive?

Pratt: Yes. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When was the first time you did Gallup Inter-Tribal Ceremonial Art Show?

Pratt: In '69, I think it was.

Little Thunder: From the very beginning?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did Woody let you know about that show?

Pratt: I can't remember how--oh, yes, I do. My mother used to bring me to Gallup 29:00to visit and participate in the dancing part when we were young, the powwow, so that's how I got started. I seen all the artists that were set up here, so I looked it up, after, and '69 was the first time I came.

Little Thunder: So you did some straight dancing when you were little, or traditional?

Pratt: War dancer.

Little Thunder: When did you make the move from Oklahoma to New Mexico? What prompted that move, and when did you make it?

Pratt: It's a career move because of the people buying my artwork that didn't 30:00even know me [in Oklahoma]. I thought, "Well, if I'm living there, I can do better than what I'm doing here." So in '83, I think, I moved. I think that's when I moved to Santa Fe. I lived for twenty-three years or twenty-two years there in Santa Fe.

Little Thunder: And it's kind of high cost of living, isn't it? Kind of a tradeoff. Were you in several galleries there?

Pratt: No, just one.

Little Thunder: Mainly, people came out to your studio to buy from you directly.

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: When and how did you meet Bobbie?

Pratt: I met her in Santa Fe.

Little Thunder: At a show? (Laughs)

Pratt: Yes. There were several of us having a show with Tom Woodard. She came to that gallery, and that's where I met her.

Little Thunder: What does Bobbie take care of, in terms of the art business? What does she help with?

Pratt: The book work and advising and loading and unloading.

Little Thunder: Yes. (Laughs) That's a big job when you're a sculptor. Did you ever get family members to help, too?

Pratt: No.

Little Thunder: Pretty much, you did it yourself or with Bobbie. You did a sculpture for the Murrah Building. Were you there when it was installed in 32:00Oklahoma City?

Pratt: Yes, yes.

Little Thunder: But then, of course, there was the bombing of the Murrah Building.

Pratt: There was three pieces that survived, and mine was one of them. All they had to do was set it back up. It was ready to go. It was metal. They found it in the rubble. They asked me what to clean it up with, and I told them, "Just wash it off. Wash it off and re-wax it." It's in the permanent collection. All of them are there, the ones that were destroyed, that they had the artists rebuild 33:00them or build new ones. They got a collection in the library at [University of Central Oklahoma] in Edmond.

Little Thunder: You've been deeply involved with the American Indian Arts and Crafts Association [IACA], and they named you Indian Artist of the Year two years in a row in 2003 and 2004, and they also gave you their Lifetime Achievement Award.

Pratt: That was in '85 and '91 or '92. I forget, now.

Little Thunder: What was that like to receive those awards from that prestigious organization?

Pratt: It was a great time. It was a great time.

Little Thunder: Robert Tsosie, who's become a well-known sculptor in his own right, apprenticed with you. Can you tell me how that came about?

Pratt: I had three helpers in Santa Fe, and he was working for me for six years. 35:00I decided to move to Gallup. I can't remember what year he quit, or I told him he's on his own, and he's making a living out of it.

Little Thunder: What prompted your move from Santa Fe to Gallup?

Pratt: Santa Fe was changing, and it was getting so expensive to live there. They diagnosed me with Parkinson's, so I had to slow down a little bit. We looked for a place all over the country, and we finally wound up here.

Little Thunder: And it's a really nice place that you have your studio in, too. Your brother, Harvey Pratt, is a well-known Indian painter. Have you ever collaborated with Harvey on anything?

Pratt: Where to go to dinner. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Has Harvey ever done any sculpture?

Pratt: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: Has he ever sought your advice on it?

Pratt: No, he don't need my advice. He's pretty well-rounded.

Little Thunder: You won first place in sculpture at Red Earth in 2009 with a wood sculpture, and we're going to look at a sample of your wood sculpture here at the end. Was that your first wood sculpture that you entered in a competition?

Pratt: Yes. I can't remember what it was, now.

Little Thunder: What drew you to wood after you'd worked in these other media?

Pratt: Oh, I'm always looking for something new. I taught myself how to silversmith since I've been in Santa Fe, and I've been selling jewelry. It's just another outlet.

Little Thunder: Some of those small sculptures are almost like jewels when you combine the metal and the gemstones. We're going to talk a little bit about your philosophies and practices of art. Even though you started out in metal, you do bronzes. You've done stone sculptures, I understand it.

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Wood, and then dichroic glass?

Pratt: That's in the jewelry.

Little Thunder: What factors influence what medium you choose to work in? Is it because you have an image in your head and you know that it's going to work better in one medium than another?

Pratt: I think it's mostly color that makes me see something.

Little Thunder: Okay. So it's the color and the association with that image of what you want to do. You do quite a bit of human figure subject matter, but another important vein for you is subjects that relate to Indian beliefs, like 39:00Corn Mother or Little People. I know you do a wide range of animals. Do you think your subject matter has changed over the years?

Pratt: No. It has mostly to do with nature.

Little Thunder: Sometimes the environment will change the way you look at your art. Do you think that's been much of a factor?

Pratt: No. No, I don't think it influenced me at all.

Little Thunder: You're down from three assistants, I guess, to one assistant now. Can you explain how that works for you, what your assistant helps you with?

Pratt: Well, now I've gotten older, and I've got Parkinson's, I need some help with the heavier things, or I need to rest. I'm glad that there's somebody there that I'm teaching while I'm at it.

Little Thunder: In the beginning, did you sketch a lot, Charlie, when you were doing your preliminary concepts? Is sketching very much a part of your sculpture, or do you just work directly?

Pratt: Oh, I sketch. I get some ideas. I get ideas at night, and that's when I'll make some sketches so I don't forget.

Little Thunder: As soon as you wake up, you make your sketch.

Pratt: Yes. And then some things I just start making right away. I already know what needs to be done.

Little Thunder: What role does story play in your work? Do you have stories for your sculptures?

Pratt: All of them, every one of them. Sometimes you can get them out of me, and sometimes you can't. (Laughter).

Little Thunder: Does that just depend on whether you feel like sharing the story or not?

Pratt: Yes. I had a blind man buy five pieces at one time. He couldn't see them, 42:00but after I got through talking to him and explaining them to him and letting him feel of all of them, he bought five of them.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow. What a neat experience. Looking back over your career, are there any awards that you consider more important than other awards?

Pratt: No, I don't think so. They all came at the right time.

Little Thunder: When do you think was a turning point in your career, an important turning point?

Pratt: I can't remember what it would be.

Little Thunder: How about something that was a high point in your career, that you look back on as a real high point?

Pratt: I guess it was when I won the Indian Arts and Crafts award the second time. When somebody finally won it for the second time, I told them, "Welcome to my world!" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Because I think there's only two of you that have won it twice in a row.

Pratt: Yes. [Paul Harvey's secretary called me one time after he bought some of my art. She said Harvey wanted to see me, wanted me to come to the house next time I was in Phoenix. I had a dirty, beat up old car and I pulled up in front of this large mansion, looked like a Roman Catholic church. I knocked on the door and the butler came and said, "What do you want? Well, go around back." So I did, and knocked again, and he said, "Now what do you want? I said, "I'm supposed to have lunch with Paul Harvey." "Then go to the front, go to the front."]

Little Thunder: What was one of the low points in your career?

Pratt: Haven't gotten there yet. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: But you've faced some challenges with this Parkinson's.

Pratt: Yes, it's slowed me down a little bit.

Little Thunder: Is your creative routine pretty much--

Pratt: Oh, I still get all kinds of ideas, too many. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Seven days a week, right? Up every day, ready to go into the studio. Are there any brand new media or formats that you're thinking about working on in the near future that you haven't tried yet?

Pratt: No, none right now.

Little Thunder: What advice would you give to a young Indian sculptor that was just starting out in the business?

Pratt: When you're in business for yourself, you've got to be a bookkeeper, promotion, and new ideas all the time.

Little Thunder: Sometimes artists don't want to deal with that bookkeeping and promotion.

Pratt: Well, they'd better learn.

Little Thunder: Yes, it's a big part of it. Because of the use of precious gemstones and such with your metal sculpture, because of the way you incorporate them, did you ever have a piece at a competition where somebody wondered where it belonged in terms of categories?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: When was that? Just some of the earlier shows?

Pratt: I remember there was a judge that told me, he says, "I remember that we explicitly said that there would be no kind of plastics." And he says, "What do 47:00you do? You show up the next time with a plastic sculpture." (Laughter) He said, "But we had to give it a prize."

Little Thunder: Do you remember what show that was?

Pratt: It was one of the IACA shows.

Little Thunder: Was it fiberglass?

Pratt: Yes, fiberglass.

Little Thunder: Was it a horse, by chance?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: I think I remember one of those really nice fiberglass horses. Is there anything that we've forgotten that you'd like to add before we take a look at your sculptures?

Pratt: No, I don't think so.

Little Thunder: Well, we're going to switch focus. What I'll have you do, Charlie, is talk about the sculptures individually.

Pratt: This is called Blue Corn, and the material is sheet bronze and bronze 48:00tubing. It's fabricated out of 50,000 sheet bronze and several different sizes of tubing. The base is lava rock, and it comes from the middle of the earth, and I start at the roots. This Native American corn can grow anywhere. I start at the roots to show that that's a way of life. It's hard, but this corn is a staple for the Native Americans. It goes on up, and it comes to the fruit which 49:00sustains life. The top tassel is religion. They use it in ceremonies, the corn pollen.

Little Thunder: That's great.

Pratt: This is a cast bronze. It's about nine inches tall, and it's called Little Feather. It's a little female pony. She's real ornery. (Laughter) Every other week they had to have a giveaway and give her away because her keepers don't want her there no more. When they first see her, they think she's so 50:00pretty, but she's ornery. She opens all the gates, knocks over the outhouse, runs, breaks the fences down, chases people, so the next time they have a giveaway, they give her away. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Can you explain, Charlie, about a giveaway?

Pratt: It's performed at gatherings to honor your friends or your relatives, and you give them gifts and honor them.

Little Thunder: And do you have a kind of series of her? Is she a recurring figure?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) I thought so. I thought I recognized her. So is this just one of her stances, or are they all different variations?

Pratt: No, they're all the same.

Little Thunder: On the subject of horses, Charlie, did you ride horses growing up?

Pratt: When they found out they got a horse and didn't have no way to get it home, I could ride it home for them.

Little Thunder: You want to tell us about your sculpture here?

Pratt: It's mythological, stories about Little People. Just about every tribe of Native American people have stories about little people. The Cheyennes call them miskache. It means "little people in the grass." This is one of them that I created. His name is Bugs, and he paints bugs and little insects. Their job is 52:00to see that all the insects and flowers and little animals have the right color on them.

Little Thunder: And the leaves, too, in the fall, right?

Pratt: Yes. That's his palette. It's got his color on it.

Little Thunder: Standing on his palette. I'll try to get a closer look at that lady bug. That's just some wonderful detail, and pretty big ears, too.

Pratt: [Focusing on the crucifixion sculpture.] My grandmother was a very religious person. She read the Bible every day. She was almost a charter member of every church in town. Whichever bus came to the house first is the church we 53:00went to that Sunday. I think I've been saved in just about every denomination there is. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You've covered all the bases. (Laughs) So what was the inspiration for doing this piece, Charlie?

Pratt: The title of it is Forgive Them.

Little Thunder: It's an Indian Christ figure. Some beautiful detail there. The musculature on the chest, the ribs, everything's just so beautifully detailed, 54:00and the face. Was this a pretty long undertaking?

Pratt: No, this is one that I made a sketch of and knew the measurements were pretty easy.

Little Thunder: Is it one that you knew you were going to keep for yourself?

Pratt: No. I planned to give it to a church, but I can't find a church that wants it.

Little Thunder: You're kidding! I know some Indian churches in Oklahoma that would probably--

Pratt: Well, I tried one.

Little Thunder: Is that right?

Pratt: Yes.

Little Thunder: Wow, amazing. Well, it's a beautiful, beautiful piece. Thank you so much, Charlie, for your time today. I appreciate it.

Pratt: Thank you.

------ End of interview -------