Oral history interview with Shan Goshorn

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is February 15, 201l. I'm interviewing Shan Goshorn as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by Oklahoma State University and the Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at Shan's house in Tulsa. Shan, you're an artist who works in a wide variety of media and who is especially concerned with issues of representation of Native Peoples. You're Eastern Band Cherokee. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.

Goshorn: Thank you.

Little Thunder: I understand you were raised in Baltimore, Maryland. What was it like growing up there?

Goshorn: I grew up outside of Baltimore, attended school in Bel Air, Maryland. But every summer, my family and I would pack up and go to Cherokee, North Carolina. As I got older, old enough to be of working age, my parents would leave me there for the summer and they would go back. Both of my sisters had 1:00this experience, too, because it was just easier to find work there. So we lived with my grandmother. My parents have since moved back to Cherokee, so that's home base now.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Goshorn: My mother was a registered nurse, but she became a homemaker when the children came along. My father worked for the government. He was an electronics technician.

Little Thunder: Is your Cherokee on both your mom and dad's sides?

Goshorn: My mother.

Little Thunder: During some of those summers that you spent with your grandmother in Qualla, [North Carlina],what were some of the things that you did?

Goshorn: My first job was working as a waitress. No, I take that back, my first job was six hours long. I worked at Kentucky Fried Chicken. (Laughter) Which seems ironic, since now I'm a wildlife rehabilitator and I work with birds. It 2:00only lasted six hours. But after that, I worked with the Qualla Arts and Crafts Mutual, which is a cooperative of Cherokee people, Cherokee artisans and craftspeople. So I became aware of Cherokee crafts that way and I met a lot of our craftspeople and artists. I then started working with the Indian Arts and Crafts Board with the only field representative left outside of Washington D.C. I worked with him for several years.

Little Thunder: You were in your teens at this point still?Goshorn: Yes. I did that through high school and college. I would go down there and work for the summers.

Little Thunder: Was your grandmother a Cherokee speaker? What was your exposure to the language?

Goshorn: Yes, she was, but she didn't speak it very much. She was of the mindset that it wasn't a good thing anymore to speak Cherokee, but she would talk at my 3:00urging. So, I would pick up words. I'm not fluent by any means, but I do have an understanding of words and counting and food--survival words. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Were you involved with the Baltimore Indian community at all?

Goshorn: No.

Little Thunder: What kinds of art experiences did you have in public school?

Goshorn: I had a phenomenal art teacher in the eleventh grade. At my parents' urging I was very involved with music up until that point. And it took a lot to convince them that I wanted to use up my one elective and drop orchestra and go into visual arts. (Laughter) But I had an incredible teacher in the eleventh grade. In one year, he helped me get a portfolio together, so I was accepted into the Cleveland Institute of Art [CIA] in Ohio.

Little Thunder: That's very exciting.

Goshorn: CIA was a five year school.

Little Thunder: Did you have any extended family members that were artists?

Goshorn: No, I was the only one in my family. We didn't even have any basket makers or bead workers, but-- I feel like most Indian people are very artistic, so it was all around me. But it wasn't in my immediate family.

Little Thunder: When you decided to go to the Cleveland Art Institute, had you already decided that you were going to be an artist?

Goshorn: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. In fact, growing up, I felt like I was really cheated because it was like, "What do you mean you only get to pick one thing?" Because I was really drawn to being a veterinarian. Or I really wanted to be an artist. There were a couple other choices that dropped off earlier. I went to the 5:00Cleveland Institute of Art because their silversmithing department was one of the best in the country with John Paul Miller. I took two years there and decided it just wasn't a good fit at that school because they didn't understand. They just had no appreciation of Native American art. None.

Little Thunder: So it wasn't even something that you could explore through jewelry?Goshorn: Oh, absolutely not. No, in fact, it was very difficult because you absolutely had to do things their way. In the silversmithing department, it was even more amplified. And I was being wooed by the photography department--they were trying to amp up their department a little bit. I just couldn't believe how much faster it was. I thought everyone should know how to photograph their own work, and I took this photography course and it's like--in silversmithing, you were tink, tink, tink, tink, tink for a year on one piece. And in photography, you could go in and knock out ten, fifteen in a day.

Little Thunder: Did they have a different attitude toward Indian subject matter?

Goshorn: It was not valued at this school. I was the only Indian there at the time.

Little Thunder: Was that the end of your higher education?

Goshorn: Yes, I got my Bachelor's of Fine Arts. I went to school there, but I also went to school at the Atlanta College of Art. I actually got my degree from the Atlanta College of Art, but I only went to school there for one year. I was in Cleveland for three years, and I went to a local university for a year, so I really felt like my affiliation was with the Cleveland Institute of Art.

Little Thunder: Who were some of your artistic influences aside from your exposure to the Eastern Band Cherokee artists?

Goshorn: Well, at the Cleveland Institute of Art, I discovered American Indian Art magazine. Every month, back cover, Elaine Horowitz Gallery, was Fritz 7:00Scholder. I was just completely knocked out by him. I also became very interested in the work of T.C. Cannon. This was back before you could get online and research people. So, if a book came out, I'd look at the same book thirty, forty, fifty times. Or if a magazine like American Indian Art came out, I would covet those, and just go over them and over them and over them. So, I learned about a lot of people that, ironically, I started showing with when I moved out here. So that was very exciting for me.

Little Thunder: At the Atlanta Institute of Art, had you kind of switched your focus to painting?

Goshorn: No, I actually ended up with a double major in photography and painting. At the Cleveland Institute of Art, the way they introduced hand-tinting--which is probably what my work is most recognizable as, 8:00hand-colored black and white photographs--[the teacher] just brought in a box of Marshall photo oils and said, "These are Marshall photo oils. You use them to hand color black-and-white photographs. You apply them to the surface of the photograph, to a matte surface with cotton ball and Q-tips. I want to see three examples."

Little Thunder: Was it partly your interest in pursuing Indian subject matter that brought you to Oklahoma? How did you decide to make the move here?

Goshorn: It was because I was living in Atlanta at the time. I had just graduated from the Atlanta College of Art and it was time to change, it was time for a move. It was sort of for self-preservation reasons. I had a former roommate from Cleveland living out here, and she said, "Why don't you move out here?" So I decided on a Thursday and moved on a Monday. It was just quick. And it was a real shock when I moved here. But being in an intertribal environment has been fabulous. That's really been the best part of living here.

Little Thunder: Did you live with your friend initially?

Goshorn: Yes.

Little Thunder: And got introduced to the galleries right away?

Goshorn: I stumbled across Linda Greever's gallery, the Art Market, first thing. And met Ben Harjo. He actually was my neighbor. He lived in the apartments right next door to where I was living, so we spent a lot of time together. He was real helpful with helping me navigate with other artists. One of the first people I met when I moved here was Kelly Haney because as I talked to people, he was one of the people that I looked at work in books, and oh my god, he was just bigger than life. And they said, "Oh, Kelly, you should call Kelly. He's really a nice guy." And I'm like, "Call Kelly?" And I did. And he's like, "That'd be fine, 10:00young lady. Why don't you meet me at the Thunder: bird Restaurant and we'll have lunch, because that's halfway between you and me going on to Oklahoma City." So, we met, and he said, "Bring some photos of your work," and I did. He said, "We've got this big going show coming up, it's called Red Earth. I think you should apply." That's the first booth show that I ever did. It was the first year that Red Earth opened, and this was their twenty-fifth year, this year.

Little Thunder: In terms of Indian artists who shared your interest in multimedia work, did that come a little later?

Goshorn: Well, I was really interested in the work of Fritz Scholder and T.C. Cannon. They were big, big, big influences. But then once I started meeting Indian artists, I started working with Edgar Heap-of-Birds. He formed a group called "Makers" and it was Edgar, Richard Ray Whitman, Patricia Mousetrail 11:00Russell, Joe Dale Tate Nevaquaya and myself. The premise was, as Indian people, it's not about making artwork to hang on the wall, it's about the process of making it and the ceremony involved in making it. So that became more of a multimedia, inter-dimensional type of thought.

Little Thunder: What year was that approximately?

Goshorn: '86 to '88, I think, up to almost '90. Late '80s.

Little Thunder: With regards to photographs, of course there's this whole history of non-Indians photographing Native people in ways that didn't represent them truthfully. Was that one of your motivations in taking photography?

Goshorn: Absolutely. I became part of this group in Canada called Native Indian/Inuit Photographers Association, NIIPA. That was part of the premise of 12:00that group. We had images taken of us and from us for so long--and that was back when you could get a nice little instamatic camera. It was affordable to take pictures. People were encouraging Indian people to take more photos and I became part of that group. It's no longer around, like a lot of Indian groups, but it was really important during that ten to twelve-year period. I was on their board for a little bit.

Little Thunder: Even though you've been involved with the Indian community here and you're Indian, in terms of taking photographs, did you ever run into any resistance?

Goshorn: No, but I always tried to make sure I had permission before I photographed at a ceremony or a wedding or at an event. In 1992, that was the 13:00big Quincentennial, and NIIPA actually spearheaded this. It was going to be a book, and then it was going to be an exhibit, and it was going to be a collection of photos, and nothing ever really happened with it. But they were encouraging photographers to document that year. It was called, "A Year in the Life of Native America." The title changed a bunch of times, too, but that really helped me square in on making sure I had permission slips signed and model releases. So, I've been really good about trying to keep up with that and getting permission from people.

Little Thunder: That was probably a great base that you accrued in terms of photographs--

Goshorn: I have a lot of negatives. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Another thing about photography is the way it captures 14:00contemporary identity and yet it becomes a historical artifact the minute it's taken.

Goshorn: Yes. And that was one thing that was really important to me. When I first started showing work people would see burial scaffolding, and they were like, "You mean, Indians are still around?" I wanted these photographs to show that this is a contemporary part of life, that we are still here. I may paint things around it, but this has a contemporary basis.

Little Thunder: As you mentioned you're especially well known for your hand-tinted colorized photographs. What has sustained your interest in that process?

Goshorn: After ten or fifteen years, it was starting to feel like I was doing it 15:00by rote. It just felt like it wasn't challenging enough. It was with the pregnancy of my daughter, who's now fourteen, that I upped the ante a little bit because I was bedridden with her for the last four [months]. I was doing a lot of political work, and my doctor even said, "That strife will be here after your baby comes. Your job is to have a healthy baby now." So I would stay in bed and I would look at my negatives and I conceptualized this entire body of work. And as I lay in bed, I wanted to make it more challenging than just, "I'm going to put yellow here and I'm going to put green here." I was visualizing double-exposing all these images. This was before Photoshop, this was before anything was digital. It was all [done] in the dark room. I was figuring out how to do all this layering in the dark room, so they were double-exposed black-and-white photographs that were hand-colored. It was about going to a more 16:00nurturing place, rather than the warrior and the militant place. It was more a place of paying homage to our original mother, to the Earth. So, it was all about remembering our traditional teachings to help me carry this baby to term.

Little Thunder: So you were actually working it out in your head--

Goshorn: Yes, I wasn't in the dark room at all. I was making notes all over my contact sheets and making little studies. "Rest for four months?" Are you nuts?

Little Thunder: (Laughter) Especially for an artist. Another vein of work that you're well known for involves photographing commercial products that use stereotypes to promote their brands. Can you talk about how you got the idea for those series?

Goshorn: It was when I was doing work with Richard and Edgar. Amnesty International was coming to town, and they wanted to do some work to show how 17:00Indian people are still being stereotyped. Edgar had heard me talking about this. This was kind of a new idea for me. I didn't grow up in a family that was aware of this. Like a lot of America, it was kind of under our radar. When I did have that ah-hah moment--it's just like Red Man Smokeless Tobacco. That's the largest-selling smokeless tobacco in our smoke shops. Indian people go in and they say, "That's an Indian. This brand is for me." We get caught up in the commercialization just like everybody else does. So, when I finally had that "ah-hah" moment that this is not right, that this continues to perpetuate us as cartoon characters and dehumanize us, that's when I started doing this work.

Edgar had heard me kind of working through some of this. Edgar and Richard 18:00really challenged me to start thinking politically and to make some statements with my work. He said, "Why don't you do something for this show? The show's coming up, why don't you work something up?" And I'm like, "Okay. So I'll go to the grocery store and maybe I'll find five or ten things around me." In the grocery store, I just told my kid, "Anything you see with an Indian on it, bring it back and put it in this basket." I mean, we were piling stuff in there. It was a huge awakening for me just to become aware of how insidious this was, just to become aware. I just showed that exhibit for the first time in years out at Western Carolina [University]. I think I had 250 actual items--I'm not talking about cigar store Indian stuff that's old. I'm talking about stuff that was being produced. Some of that stuff is not being produced now, but at the time 19:00that I collected it, it was all being consumed. No sooner would you get one thing taken off the shelf, five more would replace it.

Little Thunder: So this show in North Carolina was relatively recent?Goshorn: Yes, it was last fall, 2010. But, to counter that, I would do a lot of lecturing. I would do a lot of talks to school groups and such. A lot of times, I'd have people that had to be there, they'd be sitting there just wrapped up with barbed wire [practically]. And then, sometimes I'd have a really enlightened group that would say, "Okay, okay, we get it. But with what do we replace these images?" That's when I started doing "Reclaiming Cultural Ownership: Challenging Indian Stereotypes," which is the only documentary-style photography that I've ever done. That was just images of Indian people by an 20:00Indian person, knowing Indian people enough that I could get into their lives and watch them. An all-Indian board of directors, or a Native American television show or people playing a game of Indian dice, [or] gathering supplies. Just to show who we really are.

Little Thunder: So that arose out of your desire to respond--

Goshorn: Yes, it was a counterpoint. Not this, but this is who we are. This is who we are.

Little Thunder: There's a more recent series with the double-exposed photographs and colorized photographs. It focuses on images in which the people and landscape elements are merged.

Goshorn: That really was what spawned out of my pregnancy. It was showing our 21:00relationship to the Earth Mother and just showing [that] she cares for us, and in return, that's what our ceremonies and our dances are all about. It's about renewal of the earth, and hence, ourselves.

Little Thunder: I think that it is interesting Indian women artists are really focusing on those particular relationships. Especially at this point in our lives.

Goshorn: I was just talking to Louis Gray, who is really outspoken about Indian rights and the inappropriate use of mascots to represent Indian people. The thing I admire so much about his approach is he's just so kind and gentle. And that's becoming more of the way that I'm approaching it. I'm less in your face 22:00with, "You really ought to believe this, and you don't have the right--" I'm doing less of that. I just don't have time for that, anymore. I have a message and if people want to hear it, fine. If they don't, fine. I just don't have time to be in their face anymore.

Little Thunder: Your work's been shown in France and China and South Africa, among other places. Did you travel to some of those places with your work?

Goshorn: No. (Laughter) But I'm going to Italy in May, and we're trying to work out the logistics to have a show while I'm there.

Little Thunder: You've also worked as an artist in the schools for over twenty years. Do you still do that?

Goshorn: No.

Little Thunder: During the time that you did, what art media did you teach?

Goshorn: We would do collaborative--there wasn't one thing I did, there were a 23:00lot of different projects that I did. I did storytelling and the school would collectively illustrate the story, so classes of children would come in and contribute to these paintings. A lot of organizing there. A lot of projects, showing them simple basket weaves and equating that to math. Self-portrait projects to create yourself in a positive way.

Little Thunder: How do you think teaching impacted your art during that period?

Goshorn: It taught me to appreciate my own time in my own studio a lot! 24:00(Laughter) It wasn't that I didn't enjoy children, but you have nothing left at the end of the day. Nothing. It's an exhausting job. And I was much younger then, but it was just exhausting.

Little Thunder: I know that corporate commissions or commissions from businesses are part of your income. Do you have to eschew art with a message? How do you approach workplace art?

Goshorn: Luckily, I feel confident [enough] as an artist now to not feel like I have to do work the client likes that I don't like. The work is always something that I like. And I think all the clients are thrilled with their work. To my 25:00knowledge, everyone's happy. I've reached the point in my career that they're hiring me because they like my work, so they have to have the confidence that I'm going to produce something good for them.

A lot of what I'm trying to do when I create work in a corporate setting is to create a space where people can take a deep breath. Just so they can quit their working on the computer or talking on the phone or crunching numbers or just all that crazy stuff that goes on in corporate America. I had a job, briefly, in corporate America. Kind of like Kentucky Fried Chicken, it was very brief. (Laughter) But you need a space where you can go in and you can just get grounded. Even if it's an abstract piece--I'm not [saying] it always has to be 26:00the grass pieces, which is something that I have been doing--but even abstract pieces, I think, challenge us in a different way. It stimulates a different part of the brain, so that people are more productive at thinking.

We're moving away from just doing "jobs." We have to move into creatively learning how to do these jobs because jobs can be outsourced to computers now. You have to be a creative thinker so you can figure out what you want the computers to learn to do. I think a good work space creates that kind of atmosphere. I am a big believer in abstract work around us. I think it really encourages us to be more than we know that we are.

Little Thunder: It's mentally stimulating. Are they primarily paintings or has 27:00it been a mix of media?

Goshorn: Photography and paintings. Digital technology has revolutionized the way that I work. As soon as I found someone that could print photographs on canvas, so I could hand color these canvases--you don't have to worry about framing it--all of a sudden, they got really big. I was doing pieces that were nine feet tall for this one client. I did a piece that's up in Bartlesville that's twelve feet long. So it revolutionized it for me, completely changed the way that I work.

Little Thunder: You've had over twenty solo exhibitions. What's one that really stood out for you?

Goshorn: There's not one, but the year that I was pregnant with my first child, 28:00I had eight solo shows. (Laughter) So, that year just kind of blurred them all together. People were packing up work and sending it directly to the next place. I just kept wondering what this work was going to look like when it came home.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) Have you done any installations?

Goshorn: No, but I'd like to. Every time I go to an installation show, I think, "Why is all my work flat on the wall?" But then I think, "How are you going to store all that stuff?" Just storing paintings is such a challenge. Unless you count the installations I do with the stereotypical work. I have some ideas for 29:00installations that I think would be a lot of fun and I think they'd be good shows, but I'm just not ready to go there yet.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) How about collaborations with other artists? Have you done any of that?

Goshorn: Yes, there's an artist from Cherokee, North Carolina that does wood sculpture. And we did a collaboration where he would carve these abstract forms, and I would paint them and then I would put beads on them. They were wonderful. They were wonderful. One was real tall and blue. He let me name them and everything. He just said, "Here you go." So I called it, "Long Man," which is what we call our river. It was painted to show the current and the undulation and the twinkle and the beads. The other one was shorter. It looked like a real tall lotus. I called that one Eternal Flame because we carried the flame from North Carolina to Oklahoma, and then they carried it back. That one was painted 30:00in coppers and golds and reds. But really, any corporate installation, I feel, is a collaboration.

When the Tunica Biloxi invited me to come and do work for their casino, they said, "Okay, we'd like to fly you in." And I'm, like, "Fly me in? Just send me something to work from!" They wanted to fly me in so I could be inspired. (Laughter) I'm like, "Well, that really rocks, but just send me something." They said, "We really can't." And the reason they couldn't was, the Tunicas and the Biloxi came together because they were such small tribes. But their tribe was the catalyst for NAGPRA [Native American Graves Protection Repatriation Act of 1990]. There was an entire mound that they didn't even know about, as contemporaries, that this amateur archaeologist was selling off piece by piece. And they managed to use that as the example of an entire culture that would be dissipated because of this man's gold digging. So, that's how the decision was 31:00made that it would become illegal to dig up these Indian graves. And they had decided, as a tribe, that their pieces would never leave again. So, they did actually let me come down and go through some of the pottery shards and go through the beads that they found, and I came up with ideas of pieces to put in their casino based on their pottery. It's very much a collaboration when I work with corporations or companies like that.

Little Thunder: Is casino work still an important thing for you?

Goshorn: I never thought it was going to be important. I never thought it would, but my tribe commissioned me twice. I thought, "Wow, that's a good gig." And then Cherokee Nation asked me to do a piece, and I thought, "Well, that gig's up. Got the two Cherokees." There's the Ketoowah Band, but their casino, I didn't think, was hiring artists. But then the Tunica Biloxi hired me to do 32:00that. And I did some work for the Quapaws.

Little Thunder: For the Tunicas, that's been fairly recent?

Goshorn: It's been within the last six or seven years I think. But the Quapaws was a couple years ago.

Little Thunder: You've done some book illustrations and one of them was for a book of Cherokee stories. What was that process like?

Goshorn: (Laughter) Just like every other deadline process. They contacted me for the cover, which was going to be a photo of my grandmother--she actually modeled for me. She was telling these stories, and I was painting everything around it for the cover. They had talked to another Eastern Cherokee to do the interior. There were fourteen interior black-and-white illustrations. He was 33:00going to get some studies, and it was all coming together, and it was all coming together, and I said, "You haven't seen any of the work for the inside, yet? Don't you be coming to me in the last hour and ask me to do this." That's exactly what happened. I did all fourteen interior black-and-white paintings. They were just washes. In thirteen days.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) That's amazing.

Goshorn: It was insane!

Little Thunder: You're a member of Urban Indian Five, can you tell me when that group was started and what is its purpose?

Goshorn: Let's see. I think it was started in '06 or '07, but I wasn't one of the initial five. One of the artists, it just wasn't a good fit for her, so they 34:00pulled me in. Since then, let's see, it's Brent Greenwood who is Ponca/Chickasaw, Tom Poolaw, Kiowa, Gerald Cournoyer who is Lakota, Holly Wilson, she's Cherokee/Delaware and me. Holly came in when another member had to leave because he was going to be a single dad while his wife went off to get her PhD. So, he felt like he had to pull back for a while and Holly came in. But it was an original collaboration between five artists and the Oklahoma City Indian Clinic. The intention was the artists were going to be deliberately creating 35:00artwork with the intention of inspiring wellness. We were going to be putting work up to inspire people in the clinic to remember indigenous memories, tribal memories of what we know about healing ourselves, of what we know about healing ourselves spiritually. So, part of what we're doing is addressing historical trauma, which keeps us in an ailing state. And we're kind of looking at the traditional use of the word, "disease." It's dis-ease. Where we're out of relationship, out of harmony, where we're not grounded, we're not balanced, and so we're open and vulnerable for deterioration in our body. It's not like the work is obviously about health. It's not using the icons you might know in the 36:00white medical society, but it's about using icons that Indian people know have importance.

Little Thunder: Are you rotating works?

Goshorn: We have had work at the [Oklahoma City] Clinic. We have shown work at the Health Science Center at OU, we had a show at the Southern Plains Indian Museum in Anadarko. We have had some smaller shows, but what our goal is right now is to get two pieces from each person--even if it's a high-quality reproduction--and have several sets of these ten images. We want to travel them through Indian clinics. We want to remind people of the power that we have from 37:00within to heal ourselves.

Little Thunder: You won First Place or Grand Award at Red Earth with a conceptual piece about baskets. Let's talk about your baskets a bit because these have been pretty important in your work.

Goshorn: I feel like they have been important, but it's just kind of comical how they even happened. (Laughter) When I was working with the Indian Arts and Crafts Board back when I was a teenager, one of the things they commissioned me to do on the side-- when I wasn't even in the office--they commissioned me to do twenty-one black-and-white, pen-and-ink illustrations of traditional Cherokee basket designs. By the time I got to number sixteen or number seventeen or 38:00number eighteen, I'm thinking, I bet I could do this. (Laughter) Because it's math. It's about patterns, it's about seeing the patterns in something. My family was, "No, you couldn't," and I'm like, "Really, I think I could." "No, you really couldn't." "I really think I could." It wasn't then, but it was later that I had this idea for a basket.

I know the process of gathering white oak or cane or honeysuckle--I know this process. I have photographed people doing it. That's quite a bit of what we were doing at the Indian Arts and Crafts Board, was promoting these kind of crafts. But I didn't want to do that. There were people doing it way better than me. I wanted to do something different. I just got this idea to weave baskets out of paper and not just paper, but paper that had been digitally printed with 39:00reproductions of treaties. So, I contacted the Cherokee Nation, and I said, "What is the most difficult treaty?" They were like, "Hands down, tobacco compact." And I'm like, "Why?" And they said, "It's been in arbitration, two different chiefs have been in there, trying to negotiate on it. Under Wilma Mankiller and under Chad Smith. And it's in arbitration again!" It's been resettled two or three times, and no sooner they sign it, they think the other side has the unfair advantage, and they're in arbitration again. So I'm thinking, "Alright!"

Little Thunder: This is a compact that allows--do you want to explain?

Goshorn: It's a contract between the state of Oklahoma and Cherokee Nation. And this is because of the smoke shops. If you're on Indian land, you can sell 40:00tobacco without the tax. That's what it is. So, I got a copy of the tobacco compact and I had my friend that does the high quality reproductions print them on watercolor paper. I cut them into splints and I wove them into the basket. And I used the traditional pattern called "spider's web" because I wanted to show how tangled this all was.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) What a great metaphor.

Goshorn: I'd never woven a basket, so I wasn't real sure about how to finish it off. Then I thought, "Finish it off? What am I talking about? This is ongoing." So, I deliberately left it unfinished. That piece is in the National Museum of the American Indian now. The Smithsonian bought that. I did another version of that, which is in the Kaiser collection here in Oklahoma. I thought, "Okay, so done with that piece." (Laughter) Whenever people would see it, Eastern 41:00Cherokees are like, "Yeah, okay, you can do that. But you could never do a double weave." And I'm like "Why not? People are doing the double weave. Why couldn't I figure that out?" I taught myself how to do a double weave. I actually learned here in the studio. My dad was very ill in North Carolina, so I would go back and forth every sixty days. I would pack this basket up and when I would sit there with him, I would work on this double weave. You hear stories, "I learned at my mother's feet. All these little clippings would fall down there and I just learned how to do it."

Well, my mother doesn't make baskets. So, I would have one hand on the finished piece, and I would count. I would figure out, okay, okay, okay, I'm right here. Then I'd get on the piece I was working on, and I would count and I would count and I would count. And I would say, "Okay, okay, okay, here I am. I need to go under four and turn left." (Laughter) So, this hand would run over here and try 42:00to help this hand learn how to do it. I'd go as far as I could and then we'd start over again. I would go back over and count where I was and just keep going.

That basket was so difficult because it would start on the inside. You weave it up as high as you wanted, and then you turn the splints and weave down and finish on the bottom. This one was also woven out of paper, but this one had a different message. This one was called "Sealed Fate." It was about the Treaty of New Echota, which a handful of Cherokee men signed under the cover of darkness, which supposedly gave the United States Government the authority to remove all the Cherokees to Oklahoma. That's on the outside. But on the inside, I got a copy of the over ninety-five pages, which is between twelve and fifteen thousand signatures by Cherokee people, that these men did not have the right to 43:00represent them, that this was an invalid document.

The interesting thing about that protest document is that it was on sheets of paper that were roughly eight and a half by eleven, but they were stitched together like this, so it was this long roll when it was done. On the inside of this basket--it's actually kind of a buff color, but there were also some pages on this document that were this pale blue--I don't know why. I don't know where these pale blue papers came from, but they were the papers that people were signing on. They would just have all these columns of signatures. Sometimes they were in the Cherokee syllabary and sometimes they were in the English translation of the Cherokee name. So, that's on the inside. And I did a lid, same thing, Treaty of New Echota on the outside and the protest document on the inside. But then on the top, I wove a traditional Cherokee pattern called "Man in the Coffin." I made that all out of Andrew Jackson's signature because he 44:00absolutely refused to even view the document. This is one of the few documents that actually went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said, "You know what, you're out of line, Jackson. This is an invalid document." And Jackson said, "Watch me. I'm removing them." This was really unfortunate on his part because at the battle of Horseshoe Bend, the Cherokees saved his life. So, this was a fine way to repay the Cherokees.

Little Thunder: What an amazing piece. Did you see the original protest document at the Smithsonian?

Goshorn: No, I saw them in Tahlequah. They had them on exhibit.

Little Thunder: The shape of this basket is coffin-like--

Goshorn: See, I didn't know that. That's the basket that I was modeling it from. That center one up there. [Points to a shelf.] When I took it finished back to Cherokee, North Carolina, I showed it to the museum, and they said, "Looks like we're going to have to be fourteen." I said, "What do you mean?" They said, "We currently recognize thirteen living people as being able to do this basket, and now we've added you as the four-teenth." I was showing it to one of the premier basket makers. First of all, she approved, which just thrilled me. She really approved of it. She said, "This shape is called a coffin shape. This was the hardest shape to make and it was considered sacred." I don't know, in fact, I'm not sure that anybody knows because I have asked, and either nobody knows or nobody will tell me, I don't know which. (Laughter) I don't know whether it 46:00carried sacred regalia or sacred herbs. I don't know what its sacred use was. But that piece was purchased by the Gilcrease [Museum], so it will stay here in Tulsa, which thrills me to no end.

Little Thunder: Is it on display right now?

Goshorn: No, no. I don't know what the plans are, when it will be.

Little Thunder: The Eastern Bank Cherokee gave you an honorarium in 1992 for your truthful representation of Cherokee people back East. How did that affect you?

Goshorn: It validated the work I was doing.

Little Thunder: I understand your husband has built some aspects of this house, but you, too, had a studio built for you.

Goshorn: I built this studio, Julie. (Laughter) I have saved my money for twenty 47:00years and I built this studio.

Little Thunder: [With] money from art. That's probably very satisfying.

Goshorn: That's right, that's right. Prior to working here, I was working in the smallest bedroom in the house. The thing that pushed me right over the edge was when I was doing those pieces that were nine feet tall. They wouldn't fit in my studio. They were at a slant. No matter what side of that slant I was on, the phone would be on the other side, which would ring. (Laughter) So, I ended up working with Linda Pierson at Boston Avenue Frame on Cherry Street. She let me set up in her lobby and work on these pieces. It's like, "Great, are you going 48:00to hang flags out and sell popcorn? We're all set!" (Laughter) We'd been trying to decide for years, do we build over the garage? Do I rent a place somewhere else? But it's really important for me to have it here in my house because I raised my kids, I'm here after school when they get here. I can start dinner-- I can be an integral part of the house, and I can work really, really late and not worry about having to get home. I am home.

Little Thunder: Wildlife rehabilitation has become an important part of your life. Can you talk about when you first became involved with rehabilitation?

Goshorn: As a child. We were one of those families that, when we would find birds, we would try to take care of them. I actually had amazing success because 49:00as an adult and having my federal license now, I know how hard it is. It was just lucky that we got so many of them to fly away. (Laughs) It really was just lucky. But I'm averaging-- The year before I had over a hundred birds, but last year with all the traveling, going to North Carolina, I had maybe eighty. It's a huge, huge, huge time commitment. It's so hard to keep up with baby birds' feeding schedules because they need to eat every twenty or thirty minutes. When the sun is shining, you're putting food in mouths.

Little Thunder: As you say, it just takes a lot of love and care and time. Does it feed your art?

Goshorn: Yes, that's exactly where I was going with this. The thing that was so interesting to me--because, remember, I wanted to be a vet, too--so here I get to do both things. My aviary is right outside this door. It is so rewarding to 50:00me to get to see the personality of different species of birds. And to have it validate the stories that tribal people tell about birds, about the way that different birds have a part to play in legends, or in the way that you make decisions. That's the best part of it for me. It's also a really important part of giving back to the earth. We've taken so much from our environment. It kind of ties in with what I'm doing with the Urban Indian Five. It's all about keeping ourselves well and finding our balance and becoming part of that hoop of life, instead of just thinking we're at the top of the pyramid all the time. It's all about being united and being in harmony.

Little Thunder: In terms of your colorized photos, what kinds of paper and 51:00paints or markers do you use or does it depend?

Goshorn: Well, at one time, when I was printing my own work, it was easy to be able to answer that question. But now with inks and dyes changing so much-- I have completely folded up my dark room. I pay a lab downtown. It's a dark room process, but it's not on the fiber paper that I liked so much. Then moving into tinting canvas--nobody really knows how this is all going to do. (Laughter) We're just all kind of winging it as we go along. You can do research, as far as how archival the paint is, but I'm using Marshall photo oils, which is older than color photography. I have used acrylic paint, I have used pastel, I have used pencil on them, but it doesn't work on the papers now. But I'm using 52:00glitter now. That's new.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) How much of your overall production, then, consists of paintings and how much are photographs?

Goshorn: I don't know. I wish I had a secretary so [that] so much of it wasn't office work. That's what just eats up my time in the studio.

Little Thunder: Having to write grants and apply for things?Goshorn: I haven't. I need to. I'd like to, just to keep things moving slowly in here, so I can keep working. But when I sold that basket to Gilcrease, it was the greatest thing, because it meant this winter, I could work on projects I had always wanted to work on. I finally had a little bit of financial freedom that I didn't have to worry about finding the next gig. That was such a huge relief. But with the 53:00conceptual work, so much of it is just thinking. It took me two months just to wrap my head around just how to do these corners on that basket. I just couldn't figure out how I was going to start on the top and then go.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process, starting with how you get your ideas?

Goshorn: I am always thinking. I'm not kidding, I am always thinking. If it's a really important idea, I'll make a note of it and sketch out some ideas. Or if I see something I think would really inspire-- I've got a whole file of ideas and sketchbooks with ideas. But sometimes it's a deadline.

Little Thunder: So what research do you do for photographs or paintings?

Goshorn: Well, the basket that I am researching right now is about boarding 54:00schools. I got some books at TU Law Library, the Indian Law Library loaned me some books, and I have been in touch with the Carlisle Institute [in Pennsylvania]. The computer has made it so much easier. Used to be, you'd have to go to the library and borrow books on their intergalactic loan system, you know.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) What is your creative routine?

Goshorn: We had two weeks of snow days and it was a slice of heaven because, ideally, I like to work until 1:00, 2:00, 2:30 in the morning. I love that. I love being in here all by myself with the music playing and working. There's no phone calls, I don't have to worry about e-mail. And then I like to sleep until 55:009:30. That is a slice of heaven for me. But we still have one child left at home. Now that my husband's retired, he's good about getting her up in the morning. But you have to get up by 7:30, just so you're not sleeping until noon. (Laughter) Because by the time you work out and stuff-- Usually I start working in the late afternoon and then I work after dinner. That's really my best time to work.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your journey so far, what do you think was kind of a pivotal, fork in the road moment for you?

Goshorn: I had a really challenging time in the mid-eighties, right after my husband and I got married. I did a series of work called "Coming Into Power," 56:00which we had made into posters, which was about spiritual awakening, that had a statement that went with it. It taught me to work in series. It taught me about putting more into work than just being happy with a finished image. It taught me about the impact that it had in other people's lives. I still have people coming back to me and saying, "I have this work in my home, in my office." Or, "I ran across this and it was really powerful for me." So, that's very rewarding, that my work can have an impact on someone like that. But it was also a pivotal piece that got me some awareness as far as galleries, being recognized as part of the Native American Indian art movement.

Little Thunder: The advantage of series is it allows you to do what?Goshorn: To 57:00really work through an idea. It was a piece of artwork, I didn't ever expect to show it when I first did it. It was really about catharsis for myself. It was about clearing out some of the negativity that was really just consuming us. It was something my husband and I were going through together. It was allowing myself to be receptive to the positiveness of the universe. People would come over and see what I was working on, and they were really inspired and really encouraging. That's really why it became a piece that I agreed to exhibit.

Little Thunder: What was one of the high points of your career?

Goshorn: Selling something to the Smithsonian. No, I'm going to back up. I got a 58:00call from the Smithsonian and they wanted to use one of my images for a Native American women's music festival. It was the weekend before Fourth of July and the weekend after Fourth of July. They had all these women from North America from all different tribes coming, and they used an image of mine on the CD cover. And the more I began to hear about it, the more I kept thinking, "Man I wish I could go up there. That sounds like a lot of fun." So they called me back and they said, "We'd like to negotiate the rights to use this for more, to promote it." I'm like, "If you can get me up there for the weekend, you can use it however you want to for this event." So, they fly me up there. This is the Smithsonian! They fly me up there and I get off the plane and this guy has a sign that says "Smithsonian Institution. Ms. Goshorn: ." (Laughter) So I get 59:00there and on the main Mall, there's my image on banners all up and down the main Mall. I'm thinking, I can just die now.

Little Thunder: How about one of the low points?

Goshorn: With my art? None come to mind. Yes! (Laughter) All that doing away with negativity worked!

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about that we didn't cover or anything you'd like to add?

Goshorn: Yes, I am recognized as a Native American photographer, but I have 60:00never, ever really thought of myself, really, as a photographer. I think of myself as an artist. So, people are always surprised to see how many different media I work in. They're like, "Oh, I didn't know you did this." I would encourage young artists, especially, "Don't get caught up in the medium. Your ideas are so much more important than the medium you're working with. Your ideas-- you're going to find the medium to work in. As long as you have that brain, eye, hand coordination together, you can do anything."

Little Thunder: (Laughter) Which reminds me of your beautiful necklace that you showed me before this interview began.

Goshorn: That's my point, whether it's bead work, leather, or whatever. Once you 61:00are established as an artist and you have the ability to make your ideas come out of your hands, the learning curve is much shorter for each project.

Little Thunder: Excellent. Now we're going to take a look at some of [your] work. Do you want to talk about this piece?

Goshorn: Last fall, I flew into the Atlanta Airport and I saw these big black-and- white photographs that were tinted with glitter and it just knocked me out. They were artsy/craftsy sort of, but they were just so fun. I like twinkle. I just like all that. And I like the idea of pushing the photograph a little further. But I really like the idea of applying it to a Native person because of all the glitz with our casinos. I like showing the tradition, but all 62:00the flash of the casino--all the glitter and all the sparkle. I started asking people when I was home this last trip in January, "So, do you think the casinos contributed to the revival of our culture?" Because we've had a huge renaissance. Even though the artists in Atlanta used Southern icons, I immediately saw that I wanted to use traditional Indian people in their traditional clothing. I wanted to play up that dichotomy of the casinos, of the sparkle and glitter of the casinos, and all the shmanzy that goes on. But when I was home this last January, I started asking people, "Do you think that the casinos have contributed to the renaissance of the Cherokee language and clothing that's been going on?"

Interestingly enough, people felt very strongly, but they felt both ways. Some people said, "Yes, because it's opened up the fact that we have this historical preservation going on. We have an entire allotment of money that goes into 63:00historical preservation." And a lot of people said, "No, I don't think so at all." It's not that this actually is a statement on my part, this is more about evoking dialogue so that people can compare those two, the dichotomy of the casino and the traditions. But I like the idea of tinting with something besides a transparent paint. I like that a lot. [This piece evolved into a work that was a statement about the complex tension between the casinos and traditional ways, entitled "High Stakes, Tribes' Choice."]

This is from a series called Industrial Trade Blankets. This was actually inspired from a commission that I did with some corporate headquarters here in town. They had a western motif and when they brought me in to talk they had all these pictures of cows being steered, and cows being roped, and cows being herded, and cows stampeding. And I thought, "What am I doing at this table?" I said, "Your building is just beautiful, but if you want cows in here (it was for a barbecue place) I can help you find another artist. But you have such a 64:00beautiful building, you have such an interesting marriage between natural elements and industrial elements, why don't you let me do some studies and I'll have them back to you on Monday? If you don't like them, it won't cost you anything, and if you like them, we'll negotiate."

So, I was interested in introducing that idea of including industrial elements into the pieces. These were, of course, inspired by the trade blankets, but instead of elk's teeth or instead of shells, I added this element of copper washers. This is something else that I really like about art, is finding out the tradition, Cherokee tradition, of copper. Copper was really, really important to the Cherokees. They actually attributed this rose color to the sun because they attribute--instead of the bright shining yellow that you see in Anglo [representations] they would see it when it first came up off the horizon, at its most important part. Not at the zenith looking straight up. Right at the 65:00horizon line. The healing elements of copper, too, were really important. In fact, now, they're showing that copper has true medicinal properties. They're talking about putting copper in all the places that people touch all the time in hospitals. It's got these really strong antibacterial properties. In ancient times in Rome, the soldiers that would suffer bad cuts, they would scrape some of the sword off into the wound because the sword had copper alloy in it, and they realized that if you were struck with a copper sword, it didn't fester the way it did with other swords.

Little Thunder: We're going to look ahead at a couple of photographs, next.

Goshorn: This piece is a straight digital photograph, no manipulation. It's called "Indin Car." It's kind of a play on words with how you're always talking 66:00about Indin cars on the reservation falling apart and stuff. But these guys--I was tagging along, these are the warriors of the Annikituwah, which is our first line of defense, traditionally, for the Cherokees. I was tagging along on this photo shoot for National Geographic, and it just cracked me up to see these guys in a car. (Laughs) It was totally impromptu, it wasn't staged. I said, "Hey, hey, hey, you guys, roll down the window, look over here." It was just perfect. They went into a hotel room to change, and one guy walked out to get one of his sticks, his weapons, and as he walked out, there was this other couple coming in to check into the hotel. They just watched him go to his car and they looked at each other, and they went back to their car and they left.

This is from the Earth Renewal series. This is the series that I was talking about that I conceived when I was pregnant. This was a new way to do it, because 67:00this is one of the few that I've done digitally. So, it was a digital combination. It was done in Photoshop, but I'm still hand coloring it with the transparent photo oils. This piece is called Earth Renewal, Kituwah Motherland, because this is the Kituwah Mound. This is the birthplace of all Cherokee. This is our ancestral origin land. This is the place where the Creator put us on the earth. It's one of the most important [places]. This is the sacred Mecca. This is the place. This is a woman dressed in her traditional clothing. She's one of our few speakers that grew up speaking the Native language.

This piece was done last year as a result of Duke Power planning to build a substation up here on the mountain. Nobody knew about it until they started 68:00opening up the earth, and there was this big red gash in the mountain. So when we found out what they were doing--I was really, really proud of my tribe--because there was this big grassroots effort where people got really involved to stop it. And we were successful. The Chief got behind it and he actually got into negotiations with Duke Power. They traded him for some land somewhere else. So now the goal is to buy up all the land in the mountains all around it, because not only was it visibly ugly, but all that electrical energy going over that site, it's just not good. So, I actually did another piece. I donated the rights to use the image to the Legal Fund to raise money to help with that effort.

Little Thunder: Shan, thank you so much for your time today.

Goshorn: (Laughter) You're welcome.

------- End of interview -------