Oral history interview with Bill Rabbit

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, December 10,[2010], and I'm interviewing Bill Rabbit as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project of the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at the studio Bill shares with his daughter, Traci, in Pryor, Oklahoma. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me, Bill. You've been a force in Oklahoma Indian art for a long time with many accomplishments behind you. Your dad is Cherokee from Mazie, Oklahoma, but you grew up in Wyoming. What was it like?

Rabbit: Well, I was the only Cherokee student in the school system where I went to school, so it actually was no different than anywhere else. I was just another kid. But in different areas of Wyoming, you have more tribal things like 1:00the Cheyenne, Shoshoni and the Arapaho. But in Casper, it was just--I was a semi-white guy. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: So, you didn't run into any prejudice?

Rabbit: Oh, no.

Little Thunder: Did your family make frequent trips back and forth to Oklahoma?

Rabbit: Yes, my grandmother, when she was alive, we'd come back here pretty often. And a couple of times, we moved down here, and I went to school for a year to two, and then went back to Wyoming, back and forth, for a while. Then my grandmother passed away. It wasn't too long after that I enlisted in the Army, and went to Vietnam.

Little Thunder: I want to come back to that subject. What kinds of art 2:00experiences did you have in primary and secondary school?

Rabbit: I remember I loved to paint, and it actually started in kindergarten. I have a certificate that my mother saved from kindergarten, a letter of completion. It said that I might have some artistic ability, but I was troublesome. I couldn't get along with other students. (Laughter) Then fourth grade, I think, I won my first award--Traci has it right there. I won my first award in a competition in Denver, Colorado. Got fourth place and five dollars. 3:00From there, right on through high school, I would experiment. My problem was, I always wanted to do things that they weren't teaching at the moment.

Little Thunder: Did those include doing Indian images?

Rabbit: Well, actually, in Wyoming, my introduction to art was things like [Charley] Russell and [Frederick] Remington. I was told by everyone, "This is what you should like and paint." I discovered real fast that I didn't have the ability to paint like them. That's why I would experiment and paint the way I 4:00liked, and it worked out well over the years.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) It sounds like your mom was very supportive, and your dad probably, too. What did they do for a living?

Rabbit: My dad was a structural ironworker and my mother was a housewife. She had her hands full with me and my brother and my sister, and I sure miss her. She was a wonderful person.

Little Thunder: I know that you came into painting via jewelry making. Did you make any jewelry during high school or--

Rabbit: No, what happened was, here in Oklahoma, I guess this was back in the '60s, Indian turquoise was a big thing. Everywhere you went, there it was. So, I 5:00knew how to weld and cut a bracing, and all the different things, so I thought, "I'm going to learn how to make silver jewelry." And I did. I made my first ring on the kitchen table. I had a firebrick and a propane torch, and I should have kept it. It came out alright. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You enlisted for Vietnam, and talking to other Indian veterans, they were often sent out on the hardest assignments because there was that stereotype of the super-warrior. Did you run into that?

Rabbit: Not really, not that I remember. I didn't notice it. When I think back about Vietnam, the government loves to send eighteen, nineteen year olds into battle because they'll follow instructions. They haven't lived long enough to really sit down and think about it. I went in because my dad was a World War II veteran, and he was well-decorated. I just thought I owed my country a few years of my time. I don't regret it--it was a different experience. It makes you appreciate a lot of things you never think about. So, in that respect, it was a 7:00good thing.

Little Thunder: When you came back, did you come to Wyoming or did you go onto Oklahoma?

Rabbit: My parents had moved down here. So, I came back here, yes.

Little Thunder: Definitely the Indian community was different from mainstream society in terms of welcoming Indian veterans back home.

Rabbit: When I came back, the general attitude of the country wasn't very good. They weren't really supportive of our troops. When a lot of the guys went to 8:00Canada and everywhere else, the government, I feel, made a big mistake [with Gerald Ford's amnesty program in 1974]. They set a precedent for running. Now we have a volunteer Army, and I'm so glad to see the country supporting our troops. It helps a lot. But when I come back, it was a lonely home return.

Little Thunder: Was it different in Indian Country?

Rabbit: I think the Indian people are really, in general, very kind. They're supportive.

Little Thunder: Had you already decided when you came back you wanted to be a professional artist, or was it a process?

Rabbit: No. What happened [was] I got married early, had my daughter, first 9:00baby, and I went to work for a company, welding. I did that for a while. Then I went into jewelry making, and from there, I went into jewelry making and painting, and then I went into painting full-time. It actually got to the point when there wasn't enough time to do shows and work. So, that initial step of painting full-time was kind of scary. But my wife supported me and said, "Go for it," so we worked together. But I'll tell you, there were a few times in the 10:00beginning that I wasn't sure if I'd made the right decision. It's like someone throwing you in a pond. You learn how to swim real quick.

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughs) How did you and Karen meet?

Rabbit: Well, we met in Tahlequah through a mutual friend of hers. We argued a little bit in the beginning and then next time I went down there, she changed her attitude. (Laughter) And we've been arguing for forty-five years!

Little Thunder: When and where did you sell your first painting, once you embarked on painting full-time?

Rabbit: I remember Linda Greever did a show, and all the big names were in 11:00there. Here I was the new fish in a pond--

Little Thunder: For example?

Rabbit: Well, there was Solomon McCombs, Bert Seabourn, Troy Anderson--they were all there. My most expensive painting was thirty-five dollars. They were selling out, and I was sitting back there thinking, "Boy, I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time." (Laughter) So when that evening was over, I told Karen, "I'm going to have to do this very seriously or get out." That's what triggered me to try to improve every time I did a painting, try to make it better, better, better. 12:00So that first demo was at Linda Greever's. Then shortly after that I had a nice painting, and I priced it at two [hundred] fifty, and sold it. And I thought I had arrived. (Laughter) I remember saying, "If I could sell every two hundred and fifty dollar painting I paint, I'll be happy." That was the beginning.

Little Thunder: Was this around 1970 approximately?

Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: How would you describe your style and subject matter at that time?

Rabbit: The Five [Civilized] Tribes [Museum show] wouldn't let me enter because I didn't paint the traditional, flat-lined type of work. So, right in the 13:00beginning I had great advice from Randy Woods. He's deceased. Randy said, "Paint what you like and share with people, and if they like it, they'll buy it and if they don't, they won't." (Laughs) So that was kind of how it started. And it's true, if you think about it. You can be the best at anything, and there's going to be two people walk up that don't like it, don't care about it, don't want to see it. So, percentage-wise, if you could get three or four out of ten, you're doing alright.

Little Thunder: You were part of that wave of artists that was doing something different from the older generation, and so it took a little bit of exposure, I 14:00guess, for people to come around. I understand Ted Miller might have been helpful in your career?Rabbit: Ted was a great friend. You know, he passed away here recently. I just loved Ted because he was an outgoing, loud, big old bear.

Little Thunder: And a wonderful knife maker.

Rabbit: Oh yes. We just hit it off right at the beginning. Ted was a real giving person, so anytime Ted or Charles Pratt--they were all together then--could tell me about a show or be helpful, I'd give it a try. Those really were good days. 15:00But, you know, everything comes to an end.

Little Thunder: Bing Crosby handled a lot of your work for while. He didn't normally handle painting, did he?

Rabbit: No, not really.

Little Thunder: How did that come about?

Rabbit: Well, what happened was, Ted was having a party at his home in Santa Fe. He had moved out there, and he'd invited a lot of people. I'd never met Bing. So, he came in and was looking around, and Ted told him he needed to look at my paintings because they had dealt [with each other] several years. He came in, kind of looked around, didn't give me any indication he thought they were worth anything, and said, "Yeah, okay, see you later." He left, and I thought, "Well, I guess he don't like them." Two days later, Charles Pratt--we were traveling 16:00together--he had to go by Bing's business in Albuquerque. We got down there, and Bing said, "Where are your paintings?" I said, "Well, they're in the truck." He said, "Bring them in, I want to buy them." So, that's how we started off. He bought every one I had. For several years, we worked together, and then Bing finally moved to Utah, Park City. And we just kind of lost contact with each other. Every now and then, we still do some things.

Little Thunder: Do you remember when you won your first major award for painting? Or maybe one that was particularly important to you?

Rabbit: I'm not sure about that, but what comes to mind--I got a letter in the mail that the Five [Civilized] Tribes [Museum] had made me a Master Artist. I was on cloud nine, because you've got a lot of prestigious artists that were Masters. I was so happy for a while. Then, of course, everything kind of calms down, but I actually remember that more than any other award that I got. On my brochure, there were different awards from the museum, different places in the country, but the reason I don't really keep them to mind is, [as] I told my 18:00daughter one day, "You know, a blue ribbon is great, but when a collector buys your work and writes a check, that's the real ribbon." So that's the way I've always been.

Little Thunder: That [Master Artist designation] was in 1985, or mid-'80s, or earlier?

Rabbit: In the '80s, yes.

Little Thunder: How about traveling? Did you and Karen travel to a lot of shows in the early days?

Rabbit: Oh yes.

Little Thunder: And Traci went too?

Rabbit: No, Traci was going to school. She was going to Northeastern [State University]. She graduated, but up until she graduated, Karen and I traveled, oh gosh, all over the country. I've done so many shows, it's scary. When you have a 19:00family and you're young, you'll try things like that. One thing I can brag about, I'm not lazy. I've always worked, so you know, the rest is history. Then Traci, like I say, when she graduated, she started doing shows with me because of her interest in the art. But painting has been good to me, I'll tell you.

Little Thunder: You learned, being around some of the older artists, "I'm not pricing my work quite the way I need to." (Laughter) And I know you've mentioned that sometimes you wanted to learn from other people's techniques, how they 20:00achieved a certain effect. Can you give an example?

Rabbit: Well, you can look at a piece of artwork, a painting--I learned everything by doing it. I never studied under any teacher or artist, but I was just smart enough I could look at something and try to figure out how they did that. And a lot of times, I would ask the artist. Most artists will share. They'll say, "Well, you do this and this." Funny story. I did a snow scene one time, and I was putting those dots on, one at a time, awful. (Laughter) And then of course, someone said, "Use a fan brush!" So boy, I had a real snowstorm 21:00going. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So much quicker.

Rabbit: But it's funny how naïve people are. I tried to learn different techniques, different styles, different combinations of those that I use in my work today. There are a few things I do that I haven't seen another artist do, so maybe that's my contribution. I don't know. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: How did the Indian art landscape change then from the '70s to the '80s?

Rabbit: You know, I'm not sure it'd be an exact date, but Oklahoma--the oil 22:00money started to run out, and everything slowed down. So, I decided that I was going out to the Southwest because that reminded me a lot of my home state, Wyoming, in different areas. So, I went out there. I loved the country, I loved the food, I fit right in. As a matter of fact, when I joined the Army, just prior to that, I was accepted to go to the Institute [of American Indian Art] in Santa Fe. I'd have been there when Ben Harjo was, but instead of doing that, you know, I jumped right in and wanted to be a soldier. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So did you relocate? Did you actually live out there for a while--

Rabbit: Well, no--

Little Thunder: Just sold more out there?Rabbit: Just off and on, off and on.

Little Thunder: I think that's one of your really well known phases. 23:00Southwestern imagery, Southwestern Indian images, pastel colors and clouds--.

Rabbit: I always admired the artist Erte, and I admired the Chinese and Japanese artists. I liked the way they would elongate a figure. So, I started doing that back when I was with Doris Littrell, and it went from there to all over the Southwest. I don't know if I was the only one doing it, but I definitely did my part.

Little Thunder: So the elongated figures foreshadowed the Southwestern 24:00phase?Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: And this use of line that's very sinewy, did that come with it?

Rabbit: Well, back in those days, before I had my stroke, I could take a twenty-four by thirty-six [canvas] and do a hairline [pencil mark] from corner to corner and had complete control. I paint today, but I paint with two hands. This hand is numb. (Gesturing) But I just thank God that I can still do what I enjoy.

Little Thunder: Right, it's a blessing. How about the '90s? What were some major changes that you remember during that time on the Indian art scene and maybe in your style as well?

Rabbit: I made a lot of money. (Laughs) There was a time when everything I could 25:00paint, there was a market for it. It'll spoil you. Like everything, you think, "Boy, it's going to be like this forever." But, things change. But Indian art, I'll tell you, it's been good to me because there are people today that are willing to spend their money, if they like what you do. That has always been my main goal, to paint what pleases me, and hopefully the public will enjoy it. Why this happened to me, I don't know, but I'm very thankful.

Little Thunder: It's hard, that pressure when you're selling everything, and 26:00people are waiting in line. How did you deal with that?

Rabbit: Bought a bigger brush. (Laughter) No, I'll tell you, back in those days, I was painting seven days a week, probably about twelve to sixteen hours a day.

Little Thunder: What was like a typical day for you? How early did you get to work? Or maybe you were a night painter?

Rabbit: I did both. (Laughter) No, I thought I was--in those days, I was in good health, and I thought I could do anything. So, to work ten, fifteen hours a day was nothing.

Little Thunder: In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts acts was passed, which required artists to provide proof of tribal enrollment or be certified by their tribe as artists with that heritage. Do you remember the impact of that bill on 27:00galleries or individual artists?

Rabbit: Well, I joined IACA [Indian Arts and Crafts Association] out of Albuquerque. I think some artists that were representing themselves as belonging to any particular tribe, some of them couldn't prove it, even though they had represented their selves that way their whole life. So it had an impact on a lot of artists. What makes me sad is, as far as I know, Indians are the only ones that have to prove they're Indian.

Little Thunder: What changes do you see in the Indian art scene today?

Rabbit: Well, I'm really not--I can't use a computer, but I've seen some things 28:00that are pretty neat. I think artists are going to experiment and continue to grow, and I like all kinds of art. If I had more time and the knowledge, that's what I would do. I would learn how to use the technology and turn it into art.

Little Thunder: Have you noticed a change in terms of tribal support for artists from their own tribe?

Rabbit: The Cherokee. The Cherokee tribe has been very supportive. [Chief] Chad Smith has really tried to awaken the people to their history, and I believe he's doing it. As far as the artwork goes, the tribe is accumulating a lot of nice 29:00work by different artists, and I'm so happy to see it.

Little Thunder: For the [Cherokee National] Museum [in Tahlequah]?

Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. Your primary medium is acrylic. Was that the first medium you worked with or did you experiment with some others?

Rabbit: No, my first attempt at painting was with oil. I did a painting--I was so excited, I finished it, and it looked pretty good, I thought. No one had ever told me about dryers or thinners and all these things. So, you know, one month, two months, five months, the paint was still wet. (Laughter) So, I thought, 30:00"Man, there's something wrong here!" I finally learned about the dryers and the thinners, but the oil--some people like to work with it, but I prefer acrylic because it dries fast, and you can continue to create. The acrylics, you build something up in layers. Basically, you do the same thing with oil, except with the acrylic, you do it in one-tenth the time. I've worked in gouache, I've worked in watercolor, but the acrylic was my favorite. Over the years, I've been able to do things with acrylic that they don't even have in the books. That all came about through experimentation.

Little Thunder: What's an example? You don't have to give away trade secrets--

Rabbit: Let me think a minute. You know, in most paintings, I start with the background. I'll do the sky first. You can do fifteen different types of skies with the acrylic. You can lay the paint down, you can add water--it'll give you a blend of color, or you can put it in with a brush. It's just endless what you can do. Throughout a painting, you learn how to do rocks and water and people. Painting is, for me, like having a tool chest of all these different techniques. And when I decide what I'm wanting to do, I pull from that knowledge and that's 32:00how I do a painting. Does that make sense?

Little Thunder: Yes, it does, perfect sense. (Laughter) Do you paint primarily on canvas? Do you use board sometimes?

Rabbit: Initially, I painted on paper and then board, but I prefer the canvas because the main thing about it was, they have what they call gallery wrap. It covers around, you paint the edge, you're done. We used to spend a lot of money framing things, and then they wouldn't like it. So I found out that if they liked the painting, they could frame it however they wanted. That's basically what I still do today.

Little Thunder: How has your palette changed over the years?

Rabbit: You know, I'm liable to do a painting in pastels, or I may jump in with real strong color, like that horse behind you. I'm spoiled. It's like being in a candy store. One time in the '80s, they did a one-man show [for me] at the Cherokee Nation. There were fifty-some paintings, most of them were borrowed from different collectors. They made the comment that people really enjoyed the show because they thought there were about ten different artists [displayed]. 34:00While they were hanging it, I could see it. The problem with me is I never stayed with one thing. If it's what I wanted to paint, I'd come back and do it, but I wouldn't stop there. I've done that my whole life.

Little Thunder: You stated in one of the interviews that you wanted to paint more than Cherokees. Is that what kind of opened up the avenue for you to look at these changes in format and style?

Rabbit: As you get older, you start to realize that you're not going to live forever, and then you start to think about your heritage, and it's become important to me. Now, one of my main goals is to paint historical paintings 35:00about the Cherokee people. Of course, we have the ability to take that and break it down and reproduce it in gift items and everything else. So, I don't mind spending several months on a big painting, because most of them have sold. But being able to reproduce them the way we do, that's even better.

Little Thunder: For those more historical paintings, what kinds of research do you do?

Rabbit: Oh, we do a lot of research. (Laughs) Gosh, what was that? I'm trying to think. They wanted something to do with the school that burned down. The 36:00[Cherokee Women's] Seminary. Yes, we were up at Northeastern. She used to go to school up there, so one day I went with her. We went up there and found out a lot. A lot of things that are common knowledge, but I just didn't know them. Back in those days, lighter-skinned Cherokees were considered more the elite, and full-blood or darker, they were the ones that did their laundry and cleaned the dormitories and things. So with research, you learn a lot of things. I'll tell you, I learned a lot from Cecil Dick. I guess you just learn from everybody you meet, really. If you keep your eyes open and your mouth shut, you learn quite a bit.

Little Thunder: He was really well known for his knowledge [of Cherokee lifestyles], wasn't he?

Rabbit: Yes, he was. Sure was. He gave me some great advice one time. He said, "Pick out your primary colors and the one that stands out the most, add a little 37:00bit of that color to every shade of everything you do, and it'll all tie in." And it does. (Laughter) It does.

Little Thunder: One of the themes that I really enjoy in your paintings were the cave images. I was wondering how you got the idea to develop that particular image?Rabbit: What actually happened was, I thought, "Wouldn't it be slick to have a scene here in a cave? You could see the people, but you're further in the cave looking out." So, that's how that started. Well, here's one right here. (Gesturing)

Little Thunder: Wonderful, we'll put that on the video.

Rabbit: That's how it started. Then, of course, once you do one, then you think of all the different variations, and things you can do with caves. The holdouts back in North Carolina, I'd read that a lot of these people went into the wilderness, and some of them stayed in caves, so it was appropriate for what I wanted to paint.

Little Thunder: Another motif that I really enjoy is the Rabbit: . It's both a play on your name and an important character in traditional Cherokee stories. Can you talk about the Rabbit: ?Rabbit: Well, I wish that years ago I would have tried or attempted to paint paintings that depicted the different legends and myths. I can still do some, but I regret I didn't do more. There's so much humor 39:00in life, you know. And with a name like Rabbit: , I wish my mother would have named me Peter Jack, but she didn't. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How about your signature? Has the Rabbit: been there from the beginning or did you kind of find that?

Rabbit: Well, it actually changed. Way back, I signed a painting with a B and an R combined, then R-A-B-B-I-T. And then above the Rabbit: , I always have a cross like this, radiating out. Someone asked me, "Is that a bird track or something?" I said, "No, it's a cross." I give credit to God for whatever ability I have.

Little Thunder: That's neat. What role does story or narrative play in your work? Is it real important to you that there be a story behind the image? Or do you sometimes just see a picture in your mind?

Rabbit: I don't always paint the story. I like to capture a place, a mood, a color. Sometimes, a flower or something is just beautiful. You stop right there--it doesn't need anything else. I guess it just depends on what I want to 41:00paint and how I go about painting it.

Little Thunder: Can you describe your creative process from the beginning when you get your ideas?

Rabbit: It comes at funny times. You'll be driving down the road and something will hit you. Or you'll see something out here that triggers something. In the beginning, I had difficulty--what do I paint next? Now I have difficulty painting everything I want to paint. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a nice problem to have. (Laughs) Do you do much 42:00preliminary sketching?

Rabbit: No. I will if I have to, but the style of painting that I do, you can do most of it just with the brush and painting. Traci, on the other hand, is more precise. She's kind of like Ben Harjo. I guess Merlin [Little Thunder: ] does the same thing. But when I was in school, it killed me to sketch something, then paint over it. So, I just convinced myself I could paint it without sketching. So, I did. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Karen mentioned on the video that a sense of fun is very important to you. How does that translate into your paintings?

Rabbit: I think probably I'm so fortunate to enjoy everything I paint, or at least ninety-nine percent of it. I feel so blessed, and I can find humor in a lot of things. My mind never stops working. It may show up in a painting or it may not, but I've got a great job. I have something I enjoy.

Little Thunder: I've wondered if part of you likes to challenge stereotypes of appearance with regard to your Indian images. Indians with blue eyes or sporting beards. Of course, Indians know that [some] Indians do look like that, but I don't know if you ever had someone object to something because it didn't" look" 44:00Indian enough?

Rabbit: Well, I was at an art show years ago, a lady walked up and started asking about different paintings, and I was trying to explain them. She said, "Are you Indian?" I said, "Yes, ma'am, I'm half Cherokee." She said, "No you're not." I said, "What?" She said, "You're not Indian. Indians don't shave." I said, "Who told you that?" She said, "I've seen all the Western movies, and they do not shave." I said, "Well, have a nice day." (Laughter) You know, I have some cousins, their mother was full-blood, my dad was full-blood, and one of the boys took after his dad--he was German. The mother is full-blood Cherokee, and the 45:00daughter was like me. He was sandy-colored hair, blue eyes. He didn't look like an Indian, if you go by the stereotype. It doesn't bother me if someone walks up and says, "I'm part Cherokee," or "I'm part this or that." If they're proud of that, they're not going to get an objection from me. I think it's great. There was a time in America when people wouldn't admit they were Indian and like everything else, it changed.

Little Thunder: You like to keep your art affordable. Why is that important to you?

Rabbit: I've shifted now in my old age. (Laughs) The originals have gone up because we do all the different reproductions and gift items. We try to make something affordable to anybody that likes it. Not everybody wants an original. 46:00So, I don't know, it's kind of bad. You paint long enough, and you have to go up. So, either you don't sell them and just sit on them, or you have the options of the gift items. That's where my daughter, Traci came on board. She's really worked hard, and we have a lot of customers that deal with our gift items.

Little Thunder: Can you expand on that, how you two work together? I know you show together--

Rabbit: Well, she says, "Do this," I say, "Okay." She says, "Go there," I say, "Okay," and that's about it. (Laughter) No, I trust her. I trust her judgment and I respect her, so we work well together.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. I agree with Karen that artists' wives are sometimes their greatest critics, (laughter) and probably their most trusted ones, too. How important is it for you to get feedback from Karen or Traci?

Rabbit: She makes me mad occasionally. Both of them do. I think I've done a nice piece, and they start to break her down. "Well, you need a little here, and this, this, this." They're right, and I hate to admit it. But no, I value their opinion. I did one here a while back, and I thought, "Man, you can't improve on this." And Karen did. What's funny is you can paint for hour[s] on end, and you become almost hypnotized by it. You think, "This is the best painting I've ever done." But then you give it a couple of days to cool off, you come back and look at it, and then you can see it more clearly. It needs this and this.

Little Thunder: Looking back, what are some pivotal moments when you think you could've gone down one road, but you decided to go down another?

Rabbit: You know, I think everything happens the way it's supposed to. I think somebody's in charge. We can shift and change things, but I believe in God, and I just try to do the best I can. I'm so fortunate that painting found me, and I enjoy it. If I could do it all over again, I would not change anything. I would do it the same way. I have no complaints.

Little Thunder: You mentioned the Five Tribes recognition as a Master Artist as one high point in your career. What about another high point? Did you enter the Philbrook art shows? Santa Fe?

Rabbit: Oh, Santa Fe! Yes. One year, I went out there--let's see, I applied for a booth, and I was on the Plaza, and I believe I got three first places. Best of 50:00Class in the Miniature Division, the Momaday Award-- That was probably the most awards I ever won at one time. And to win in Santa Fe, when you know the other art that's there--I won on a miniature that was one inch by two inches. I think I sold it for six hundred dollars. And I could have sold it ten times. But at that particular show, I had enough blue ribbons that I guess that was a high 51:00point. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That was a big sweep. Can you explain the Momaday Award? I hadn't heard of that one.

Rabbit: The Al Momaday. I'm not sure. I guess he must have sponsored the art in some way. On one of my paintings, I won the Al Momaday Award. And on another painting--I'm not sure what it was--but the artist Helen Hardin, she liked my work and what I was doing and she gave me an award. I hate to admit it, I don't 52:00remember just what it was.

Little Thunder: What a compliment.

Rabbit: To tell you the truth, a lot of people over the years, I think, have misread me. I think some people think I'm standoffish, or I may not like them or whatever. And that's not the case. I can honestly say I have never purposely done anything to any artist my whole life. So, when I get an award, I appreciate it, but I like it better when I get the check, because if you're doing it for a living, that's what's important. So I just never let that sort of thing take 53:00hold. I just never did.

Little Thunder: We talked about another high point in your career. What was one of the low points?

Rabbit: As far as the art goes, one of the low points in the beginning was when I made the choice to do it full-time. I went to a show, and of course, it didn't work out. I had these paintings and no money, and right then, I thought, "Oh man, this isn't going to work." So, immediately, that's when I decided--it was about the time I started moving out to the Southwest--I decided I was never 54:00going to put all my eggs in one basket again. I wasn't going to do it, still don't do it. I always like the option of having something--you could go this way or that way.

Little Thunder: You're talking about style or subject matter?

Rabbit: Well, this was in the beginning. You know, life is like a big river. The better known you are, you reap the benefits from that. But even that doesn't help at some point. It moves on and you have a lot of new people coming on the 55:00scene. You have to continually have new people appreciate what you do. And if they buy a greeting card today, they may buy an original ten years from now. I think that's where my daughter was very smart. It made perfect sense. I didn't think of it. It made perfect sense, and we make a pretty good team. I work hard, she goes swimming. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You struggled a bit with some health issues. Did they interrupt your painting?

Rabbit: I'll tell you, I've had quite a deal. When I was in Vietnam, I got into 56:00that Agent Orange out in the jungle. And when I came back, as close as I can figure, I was probably in my early twenties, and I didn't know I was diabetic until [I was] close to thirty years old. There was no reason to have testing or check your blood or nothing. Well, what happened because of the Agent Orange, it caused diabetes. Then, over the years, it gradually hurts you. I've had two or 57:00three eye operations. I just thank God that we have the medical technology and procedures that could help someone like me today. A few years back, I'd be blind. I've lost both kidneys because of the diabetes, and I do dialysis at home. Every night I hook up to a machine and it goes eight hours. Well, I chose a peritoneal, that procedure where I can do it at home, and it gives me a lot more freedom than someone that does the hemodialysis. I don't have to go sit in a chair for four hours, or however long it takes. But, you know, we're all going 58:00to die. It's just a matter of when. I trust the Lord that when He's ready, I'm going. I'll tell you the truth, I've been in so many situations, Vietnam, here, everywhere, if it wasn't for--God is real. He is real and whoever watches this, I hope to God that they get saved, because it's all coming to a head.

Little Thunder: It seems to me that in a way, your style is kind looping back 59:00around a little bit, with the strong colors, the more representational things--

Rabbit: You know, I look at painting like flowers. Out in the field, you have flowers, a flower garden. There's pastels, there's red-purples, there's green, yellows, all these things. The color wheel that you go by in [painting], the theory or history--it's all in nature. If you just look at the plants, there it is. So, the reason I like to experiment and paint the way I do--if you want 60:00realism, take a photograph. But if you want something that's a little different, then give me a chance. You might like it.

Little Thunder: We're going to look at a couple of your paintings in a minute here. Is there anything you'd like to add, Bill, or anything we didn't talk about you feel is important?

Rabbit: Is this going to be used for students?

Little Thunder: And the general public. Just whoever's interested.

Rabbit: One thing that I would like to say to any beginning artist [who] put all they can [into] a painting that you know is going to win something, and you put 61:00it in a competitive show, and it gets nothing. I've known some artists over the years that were so devastated, they quit. They actually quit painting or drawing. And the one lesson I've learned is, no matter what you do, you are never going to please everyone. If you're pleasing yourself, if you're true to yourself and if you're happy with it, that's all you can do.

Little Thunder: That's a great way to sum that up. Let's go ahead and take a look at the first painting.

Rabbit: Okay. This painting here is one of the cave paintings, but it's in 62:00reverse. You're on the outside looking into the cave. And there's a Cherokee warrior, about the 1700s. The scalp lock and the face paint. I think that would scare anybody--at least it would shock them for a second. It's a painting that I wanted to capture an idea. No history, just there it is. That's what this might look like if you were there and that happened.

Little Thunder: Very dramatic. Bill, can you talk about this painting a little?

Rabbit: This is one of my paintings that I call The Sky Image. Back when I was [in] second or third grade out in Wyoming, I used to play out in the sage brush and cactus. And you look up and you see the different cloud formations. Sometimes they would look like a face or an animal or different things. So, I never forgot that. As my ability grew, I figured out a way to paint this type of painting, or sky image. I believe in spirits and the afterlife, so maybe this is the wind if you could see it.

Little Thunder: What about this painting?

Rabbit: This is one that I was trying to capture Cherokee heritage and history. I would say this is the period probably around the 1830s, prior to the Removal. The males enjoyed the beadwork, [wore] the turban, of course. Some of the feathers--you can't hardly see them, but if you look closely, they're in there. You can see the feathers. The Cherokees adapted a lot of European traditions and ways, so this is basically what I've tried to capture here. You can see the log 65:00cabin in the back. That one--I'm pretty happy with it. It came out fine.

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